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Thread: New York Muslims Rally To Protest NYPD Surveillance Program

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    Re: New York Muslims Rally To Protest NYPD Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    I actually agree with you that the OWS movement has gone on too long. You won't get any argument from me there.
    Gotcha. I think we just had a miscommunication.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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    Re: New York Muslims Rally To Protest NYPD Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    how long did Abolition take?

    women's suffrage?

    voting rights for 18 year olds?

    abortion rights?
    A long time, but I don't recall those happening strictly through occupying a public area and holding drum circles. Sure, sit ins were huge in the 60s, and those accomplished a lot because there were goals behind them. Everyone knew what Rosa Parks was protesting. The OWS movement would be far better off to leave the park, form some sort of committee, come up with a list of actual ideas, and then present them in an orderly fashion.

    Can you name one specific thing that would satiate that crowd and cause them to leave? I can't, because I don't even know what they want, but I have a feeling they won't figure it out in the lobby of Deutsche Bank.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    Re: New York Muslims Rally To Protest NYPD Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Funny, America is the only country I know of with a constitution that guarantees the rights of its citizen to carry arms in case of a rebellion against the government, basically the founders of this country believe in the possibilities of a citizen uprising in the future, a process which gave birth to the country itself, they wrote the constitutions to protect and prepare the citizens for such a possibility, and you think the OWS camping in a park, making noises, and resisting arrests is "unamerican"?
    You are kind of correct here. The founders most certainly did advocate for rebellion under the most dire circumstances, but that should always be considered a last resort. We are not out of options in this country and I will readily argue that some of the demands I've seen from these protesters while in the context of rebellion address grievances that would infringe on other's liberties, this is where I feel they are engaging in unamerican activities. But it isn't illegal to be unamerican whether people agree with my point of view or not.

    It's one thing to disagree with the OWS for their demands and purpose, but it's another to say that their protest is "unamerican" because they broke laws, the Civil Rights movement resulted in many activists breaking laws. If you use breaking laws and getting arrested as the measuring stick of a movement, then many of the leaders in the Civil Rights movement would be deemed nothing more than criminals - and in fact that's what many white Americans thought of them.
    It's the degree of lawbreaking. If police actions are in question fight them in court, do not threaten their safety by resorting to violence as it won't end well for anyone. The civil rights protesters of the early movement did break some laws, but they did not infringe on the rights of the innocent and they willingly accepted being arrested. The violence came after the assassination of MLK.
    If the Muslim succeed in getting the objective through, good for them, but what if they can't with civil protests? Should they retire to their houses knowing they have protested and just live with the surveillance anyway? That's what happened with the Iraq War protesters. Is that the "American" thing to do?
    I think this should be enough to at least open a dialogue, if not there are legal means to get one started such as a civil suit, or otherwise opening up an inquiry within the department. I don't see these people as willing to engage in violence, and their statements do not show the entitlement mentality that some of the OWS protesters presented. Now, if things got horrendous and the muslim community did engage in violence........I dunno, in a way it would be american if it was a last resort and in a way it would be unamerican, the country just kind of works like that.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: New York Muslims Rally To Protest NYPD Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Can you name one specific thing that would satiate that crowd and cause them to leave?
    Maybe if the 1% stopped hoarding the cash?

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    Re: New York Muslims Rally To Protest NYPD Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Now you are just putting words into my mouth. I don't think I ever said there were no bad OWS protesters, but I am pretty sure it is common knowledge (and common sense), that the homeless have basically "joined" the cause. Just use your head, cpwill, it's not that tough.
    you join the protest, you join the protest . You don't get to past-tense divide the group between the "real" OWS protestors and the ones making problems simply because the problems are inconvenient.

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    Re: New York Muslims Rally To Protest NYPD Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dragon View Post
    Maybe if the 1% stopped hoarding the cash?
    Maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you join the protest, you join the protest . You don't get to past-tense divide the group between the "real" OWS protestors and the ones making problems simply because the problems are inconvenient.
    Yeah, common sense is not useful. Good point.
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    Re: New York Muslims Rally To Protest NYPD Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Funny, America is the only country I know of with a constitution that guarantees the rights of its citizen to carry arms in case of a rebellion against the government, basically the founders of this country believe in the possibilities of a citizen uprising in the future, a process which gave birth to the country itself, they wrote the constitutions to protect and prepare the citizens for such a possibility, and you think the OWS camping in a park, making noises, and resisting arrests is "unamerican"?

    It's one thing to disagree with the OWS for their demands and purpose, but it's another to say that their protest is "unamerican" because they broke laws, the Civil Rights movement resulted in many activists breaking laws. If you use breaking laws and getting arrested as the measuring stick of a movement, then many of the leaders in the Civil Rights movement would be deemed nothing more than criminals - and in fact that's what many white Americans thought of them.

    If the Muslim succeed in getting the objective through, good for them, but what if they can't with civil protests? Should they retire to their houses knowing they have protested and just live with the surveillance anyway? That's what happened with the Iraq War protesters. Is that the "American" thing to do?
    I added bold to the line that expresses what I was going to say.

    Did the nice little civil protest turn off even a single camera aimed at the Muslim neighbourhood?
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    The systems that ensure freedom and liberty are breaking down and fundamentalism is growing. Nobody is righteous anymore.


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    Re: New York Muslims Rally To Protest NYPD Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey Shane View Post
    I added bold to the line that expresses what I was going to say.

    Did the nice little civil protest turn off even a single camera aimed at the Muslim neighbourhood?
    Probably not, but if it opens a dialogue they did a good job. Another reason I am on their side is that these individuals seem to be honest and respectable and just want to be left alone, if authorities are willing to spy on innocent people of one cultural group they will outsource it eventually. So it is about time to start asserting that these tactics must be retired.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: New York Muslims Rally To Protest NYPD Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    You are kind of correct here. The founders most certainly did advocate for rebellion under the most dire circumstances, but that should always be considered a last resort. We are not out of options in this country and I will readily argue that some of the demands I've seen from these protesters while in the context of rebellion address grievances that would infringe on other's liberties, this is where I feel they are engaging in unamerican activities. But it isn't illegal to be unamerican whether people agree with my point of view or not.
    I'm questioning the "unamericaness", not whether it's legal or not. American always believe that they have a streak of rebelliousness which makes them special - and to say that protesting in whatever form is "unamerican" seems contradictory to its history. The Boston Tea Party was an act that violated others' property rights - is that "unamerican"?

    It's the degree of lawbreaking. If police actions are in question fight them in court, do not threaten their safety by resorting to violence as it won't end well for anyone. The civil rights protesters of the early movement did break some laws, but they did not infringe on the rights of the innocent and they willingly accepted being arrested. The violence came after the assassination of MLK.
    MLK himself was judged guilty for being a leader of a boycott - he was arrested, then fined by the judge. To the people whose business were affected, he was infringing on their "liberty" to conduct commerce.

    Most of the protestors are non-violent, passive resistance was practiced during the civil rights movement as well.

    I think this should be enough to at least open a dialogue, if not there are legal means to get one started such as a civil suit, or otherwise opening up an inquiry within the department. I don't see these people as willing to engage in violence, and their statements do not show the entitlement mentality that some of the OWS protesters presented. Now, if things got horrendous and the muslim community did engage in violence........I dunno, in a way it would be american if it was a last resort and in a way it would be unamerican, the country just kind of works like that.
    Like what? So the term "unamaerican" is really just an ad hominem, how can they be american and unamerican at the same?

    Protests, and in general being a pain in the arse, is a legitimate form of citizen actions (how else to bring changes when the majority can't be bothered and which the law does not address?), it brings with it consequences, but it's not in anyway "unamerican", I would say according to America's history, it's as american as it comes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: New York Muslims Rally To Protest NYPD Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    I'm questioning the "unamericaness", not whether it's legal or not. American always believe that they have a streak of rebelliousness which makes them special - and to say that protesting in whatever form is "unamerican" seems contradictory to its history. The Boston Tea Party was an act that violated others' property rights - is that "unamerican"?
    The main problem is that the particular protesters aren't targeting any one individual or group, and they really haven't been wronged as they think they have. Most of the "american" revolts if we get technical were due to actual provable abuses. These protesters are unwittingly speaking of more government control, americans tend to want the least government as possible.



    MLK himself was judged guilty for being a leader of a boycott - he was arrested, then fined by the judge. To the people whose business were affected, he was infringing on their "liberty" to conduct commerce.
    Which is why I used the innocent qualifier. The businesses were not innocent, while it is true that the Jim Crowe laws mandated the businesses discriminate if they would have cared to challenge the statutes things would have changed.
    Most of the protestors are non-violent, passive resistance was practiced during the civil rights movement as well.
    Without a coherent message, also they are not innocent as they stand by and allow those who are of malicious intent to create problems unchecked. Most of these people don't even know what the real issues are and frankly I have no sympathy for their movement.
    Like what? So the term "unamaerican" is really just an ad hominem, how can they be american and unamerican at the same?
    It's not simply an ad hom. There are things we don't stand for here, and to assert them in such a manner is well.........
    Protests, and in general being a pain in the arse, is a legitimate form of citizen actions (how else to bring changes when the majority can't be bothered and which the law does not address?), it brings with it consequences, but it's not in anyway "unamerican", I would say according to America's history, it's as american as it comes.
    You never gain sympathy for your cause by pissing people off.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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