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Thread: Denver Occupy Tries to Storm Capitol - Police use pepper spray, etc.

  1. #121
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    Re: Denver Occupy Tries to Storm Capitol - Police use pepper spray, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    A fine example of why civil disobedience is something conservatives preach and Liberals practice.
    If the police have to kick your ass it isn't civil disobedience, it is a riot. If the police remove you without incident and you get cited or a misdemeanor charge it is probably civil disobedience. These incidents or more along the lines of criminal wrongdoing, not civil disobedience.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Denver Occupy Tries to Storm Capitol - Police use pepper spray, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    it's a crime to not comply with a lawful order from a police officer. It's also a crime to resist arrest.
    what?!?!?

    No way!!!!

    Since when????
    Last edited by What if...?; 10-31-11 at 12:52 AM.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  3. #123
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    Re: Denver Occupy Tries to Storm Capitol - Police use pepper spray, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    If the police have to kick your ass it isn't civil disobedience, it is a riot. If the police remove you without incident and you get cited or a misdemeanor charge it is probably civil disobedience. These incidents or more along the lines of criminal wrongdoing, not civil disobedience.
    Civil disobedience is an act that is unlawful and whether the governing body chooses to use force or not is quite irrelevant. Just look at Ghandi's movement in India. The British killed, assaulted and beat back thousands of Indians who engaged in non-violent protest. Civil disobedience is not determined by the reaction of the governing body but by a collective refusal to obey certain specific laws. Your post was nothing more than a weak appeal to authority. You're wrong because the law says you're wrong and the police are right because the law says they're right.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 10-31-11 at 12:56 AM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  4. #124
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    Re: Denver Occupy Tries to Storm Capitol - Police use pepper spray, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    what?!?!?

    No way!!!!

    Since when????
    Since when is resiting arrest a crime? You can't be serious!
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Interpreting the constitution is the sole job of the SCOTUS. That is what they are there for.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Ok...where does Article 3 of The Constitution say interpret?

  5. #125
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    Re: Denver Occupy Tries to Storm Capitol - Police use pepper spray, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Civil disobedience is an act that is unlawful and whether the governing body chooses to use force or not is quite irrelevant. Just look at Ghandi's movement in India. The British killed, assaulted and beat back thousands of Indians who engaged in non-violent protest. Civil disobedience is not determined by the reaction of the governing body but by a collective refusal to obey certain specific laws. Your post was nothing more than a weak appeal to authority. You're wrong because the law says you're wrong and the police are right because the law says they're right.
    It isn't that simple. Murder, assault, rape, property damage, syndacalism, etc. are not civil disobedience they are major crimes much like arson, flight from an officer, and endangerment. Civil disobedience is more along the lines of marching peacefully, sitting at a segregated lunch counter, or otherwise disobeying laws that have no basis to exist. The major crimes and their corresponding laws do have a reasonable basis to exist, and that is to protect the innocent from the incompetant.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Denver Occupy Tries to Storm Capitol - Police use pepper spray, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    It isn't that simple.
    Bull****. Yes it is and you're expanding the goal posts simply to make a case for something which has not happened.

    Murder, assault, rape, property damage, syndacalism, etc. are not civil disobedience they are major crimes much like arson, flight from an officer, and endangerment.
    NONE of which have been committed/endorsed etc by the OWS on any organizational level. Who has OWS murdered? Raped? Who have they robbed? Burnt down any businesses yet? No? So what have they done that is so horribly unlawful? Set up a few tents in publicly funded parks? March into capitol buildings that their tax dollars pay for?

    Civil disobedience is more along the lines of marching peacefully, sitting at a segregated lunch counter, or otherwise disobeying laws that have no basis to exist.
    In the US during the 60s there were hundreds of civil rights protests which were given lawful orders seeking to dissolve them. As a matter of fact the police in many cities had the power to use force against any perceived threat to the status quo. The fact that they had to use force against even peaceful protests shows that civil disobedience is NOT defined by the reaction of the regent. This all brings us back to the crux of your argument which was that it was wrong to disobey lawful orders. Remember that? You went on to imply that whether cops acted rightfully/wrongfully was defined by whether they'd need to use force. That seems to be ridiculous line of reasoning given the number of peaceful protests which have been met with force by the governing body.

    If the OWS was running around shooting up banks and throwing molotov cocktails at the Capitol building, maybe you'd have an argument. However, that's simply not the case.

    The major crimes and their corresponding laws do have a reasonable basis to exist, and that is to protect the innocent from the incompetant.
    Keep some perspective on the issue at hand here. OWS isn't killing anybody to achieve goals. They're not raping blond blue eyed conservative women. They're not going to banks and demanding ransoms for the lives of CEOs. That's just NOT what is happening. Your argument was ridiculous to begin with. Admit it and move on.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 10-31-11 at 01:39 AM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Denver Occupy Tries to Storm Capitol - Police use pepper spray, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Bull****. Yes it is and you're expanding the goal posts simply to make a case for something which has not happened.
    No, I'm really not. Civil disobedience refers to simple laws, not major violations. You can look at it two ways, civil as in civil law or civil as in civil behavior major crimes do not fit in with either.



    NONE of which have been committed/endorsed etc by the OWS on any organizational level. Who has OWS murdered? Raped? Who have they robbed? Burnt down any businesses yet? No? So what have they done that is so horribly unlawful? Set up a few tents in publicly funded parks? March into capitol buildings that their tax dollars pay for?
    I am using those as examples and there have been reported rapes and sexual assaults. BTW, taxes paid for the government buildings but that doesn't equal all access, if you think it does try visiting a regulatory agency some time and check out all the steps you have to take to get a simple thing done. As well there were reports of theft in many of these protests that have made the news and some have advocated violating the property rights of private homeowners in rich neighborhoods. So yes, they have broken major laws, the last example is just that so I won't discuss it further.



    In the US during the 60s there were hundreds of civil rights protests which were given lawful orders seeking to dissolve them. As a matter of fact the police in many cities had the power to use force against any perceived threat to the status quo. The fact that they had to use force against even peaceful protests shows that civil disobedience is NOT defined by the reaction of the regent. This all brings us back to the crux of your argument which was that it was wrong to disobey lawful orders. Remember that? You went on to imply that whether cops acted rightfully/wrongfully was defined by whether they'd need to use force. That seems to be ridiculous line of reasoning given the number of peaceful protests which have been met with force by the governing body.
    The key word is peaceful, these protests are devolving into non-peaceful.
    If the OWS was running around shooting up banks and throwing molotov cocktails at the Capitol building, maybe you'd have an argument. However, that's simply not the case.
    Rape, sexual assaut, tresspassing, and assaulting an officer aren't enough for you?

    Keep some perspective on the issue at hand here. OWS isn't killing anybody to achieve goals. They're not raping blond blue eyed conservative women. They're not going to banks and demanding ransoms for the lives of CEOs. That's just NOT what is happening. Your argument was ridiculous to begin with. Admit it and move on.
    See above.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  8. #128
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    Re: Denver Occupy Tries to Storm Capitol - Police use pepper spray, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Ghandi BROKE THE LAW. Over and over again. He was arrested repeatedly for doing so. So was MLK.
    Now you've made an excellent point re civil disobedience. However, from your link:

    Mahatma Gandhi outlined several rules for civil resisters (or satyagrahi) in the time when he was leading India in the struggle for Independence from the British Empire. For instance, they were to express no anger, never retaliate, submit to the opponent's orders and assaults, submit to arrest by the authorities, surrender personal property when confiscated by the authorities but refuse to surrender property held in trust, refrain from swearing and insults (which are contrary to ahimsa), refrain from saluting the Union flag, and protect officials from insults and assaults even at the risk of the resister's own life.
    Somehow a comparison to Ghandi hardly seems appropriate.


    Thank you, Quazi!

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    Re: Denver Occupy Tries to Storm Capitol - Police use pepper spray, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    So the "truth" to you is a group of protesters are using mob rule and being backed by the US president and the democratic party to get corporatations and our us political system seperated but at the same time the democratic party and the US president rely on corporations?
    They have announced that they are going to continue to "break the law" until they get their way. And what is it they want ?

    Free stuff. Paid for by others. More redistribution of wealth, from others, to them.

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    Re: Denver Occupy Tries to Storm Capitol - Police use pepper spray, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    They have announced that they are going to continue to "break the law" until they get their way. And what is it they want ?

    Free stuff. Paid for by others. More redistribution of wealth, from others, to them.
    No, they just want a fair shake. That's something that has been sorely lacking in this country for far too long now.
    Gunter glieben glauten globen

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