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Thread: The 53%: We are NOT Occupy Wall Street

  1. #121
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    Re: The 53%: We are NOT Occupy Wall Street

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    All of those groups have basically the same ideology? Are you ****ing kidding me?



    You really need to do some research on some of those groups.

    Just because you don't agree with their viewpoints doesn't mean that they are all out to destroy America.
    Are you really this naive? apparently so. Keep burying your head in the sand and one of these days you are going to wake up and wonder what happened.

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    Re: The 53%: We are NOT Occupy Wall Street

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Such is life, you are who you associate with and if you bury your head in the sand then you are guilty by lack of interest.
    Gotcha. Well thank you for this. I'll be sure to remember your view on this for the future.

    Its also good to know that the Tea Party has no issues or problems with Birthers.

  3. #123
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    Re: The 53%: We are NOT Occupy Wall Street

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Seems to me you meant it in that you were excited that there was a list of groups of questionable character who supported OWS which you believe will hurt confidence in OWS. Essentially, I think you meant it as a cheer in support of guilt by association tactics.
    Clearly an assumption on your part. I meant it facetiously actually... as well as meaning it in a surprising way since there were sources provided. Clear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Thanks for the intentional obtuse and oblivious response Ockham.
    It's much better than the ignorant and assumed conclusive response Zyphlin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I seem to remember me stating "Type of response" not "exact response" in my post, did I not?
    You clear intent was to claim hypocrisy on my part, pointing out an example of the Tea Party and also alluding to a similar instance. I'm simply asking when that occurred so I can review an apples to apples comparison. Since you didn't provide one, I'll simply ignore the comment as baseless knee jerk reactionary comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I suggested that the tactic....pointing out groups or people who supported the Tea Party as a means of insulting, degrading, and questioning the legitimacy of the Tea party was done routinely with them and I never seemed to see you shouting out with glee at the attempts of guilt by association tactics in those instances.
    For a tactic to be valid, the tactic has to have some shred of information that lends the tactic validity, else the tactic is ignored. Again, you're assumptions are not my problem... you see what you want to see which is out of my control. I guess you see hypocrites where you want to see them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Really, that's your point? Because your first sentence had nothing to do with that.
    Amazingly... I can make more than one point at a time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Actually, the very fact that your next line is going "...or the attempt to give credibility" seems to suggest that your first line was decidingly NOT about the attempt to compare the two. So ONE of your points may've been about suggesting OWS and the TP as the same thing is wrong, which I agree with. But ONE of your points was also suggesting that because questionable people support OWS that it should cause one to question the confidence in the movement....yet when Racists or Birther's supported the Tea Party I never heard you suggest that was something that didn't bode a lot of confidence for that group.
    Can you post when Racists and Birthers supported the TP? I promise to reply to the post with "Sweet list!" just to make you feel better about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    On the contrary, I seem to remember...perhaps I'm wrong, you can correct me...that you were one to argue that you can't judge the entire movement based on individual parts.
    What I've agreed to in the past is a radical minority of any group is not reflective of the entire group. This is a bit different though - these are external groups providing support for OWS. Not quite the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    None of those parts are confusing me Ockham, though based on the fact you didn't seem to remember the points you made in your very own post perhaps its not I that am confused.
    I rarely don't remember my points as you well know. Try to limit the knee jerk reactions wrapped in assumptions is my only suggestion to help your confusion.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  4. #124
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    Re: The 53%: We are NOT Occupy Wall Street

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    LOL, so since you don't see an apparent problem for you then it isn't a problem in reality? You don't care enough because? You think that OWS represents the best America has to office? What is their "beef?" Seems you have a choice you either recommit yourself to personal responsibility and individual rights to wealth creation or your silence gives these people the support they need to destroy our economic system
    No, I can't speak for everyone. I can only speak for myself. I think that OWS is in response to the fiscal irresponsibility of wall street and the fact that the government seems to cater to the 1% and corporations rather than the 99% of the rest of us. The message has gotten muddled since then. And don't lecture me, because it's not going to make me care any more. It's all political theater, just like every other one of these non issues. The Tea Party was the same.

  5. #125
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    Re: The 53%: We are NOT Occupy Wall Street

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    Protests on either side rarely result in any concrete or practical solutions. I think people protest because it makes them feel like they have a voice. I don't foresee any group bending to the will of the people over a protest, so it is essentially pointless.
    See, I don't agree with this either. Many civil rights protests led to big changes of civil rights during the 50s and 60s. And it is hard to contend that Ghandi's protests made no difference. Heck, even some protests in recent years have at least helped bring attention to the problem, without any violence or even resistance to arrest needed. The difference is that those protesting knew exactly what they all wanted, or at least the vast majority.

    When Rosa Parks refused to go to the back of the bus it was to protest laws that treated blacks as second-class citizens. There was no need to look for her message or to muddle through what a "reasonable" solution was in that case. Sure, there aren't a lot of protests that are that simple, but the majority of protests that really make a difference are those in which the people have a clear, single message and a reasonable solution (repeal Jim Crow laws, gay marriage, women's right to vote). Even worker strikes and sit-ins that have worked have had clear messages (higher pay, more benefits, better working conditions). And the same thing works at least to a small extent with the corporate world.

    I will give one big example that comes to mind in recent history. The Dixie Chicks. Whether you agree with the boycott of them by country music fans in this country or not, you have to at least admit that the protest worked against them. They have not had a country hit in this country since the boycott started.
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  6. #126
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    Re: The 53%: We are NOT Occupy Wall Street

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    See, I don't agree with this either. Many civil rights protests led to big changes of civil rights during the 50s and 60s. And it is hard to contend that Ghandi's protests made no difference. Heck, even some protests in recent years have at least helped bring attention to the problem, without any violence or even resistance to arrest needed. The difference is that those protesting knew exactly what they all wanted, or at least the vast majority.
    I know what you mean, but that was also a different time. Now that the media largely controls the public perspective, it's hard to have your voice truly be heard. Plus, if said protest doesn't go in line with their agenda, they can easily smear it. The media has vastly changed since then as well.

    When Rosa Parks refused to go to the back of the bus it was to protest laws that treated blacks as second-class citizens. There was no need to look for her message or to muddle through what a "reasonable" solution was in that case. Sure, there aren't a lot of protests that are that simple, but the majority of protests that really make a difference are those in which the people have a clear, single message and a reasonable solution (repeal Jim Crow laws, gay marriage, women's right to vote). Even worker strikes and sit-ins that have worked have had clear messages (higher pay, more benefits, better working conditions). And the same thing works at least to a small extent with the corporate world.
    That's true, but those are also at a smaller level. I don't see OWS getting wall street or the government to change their practices.

    I will give one big example that comes to mind in recent history. The Dixie Chicks. Whether you agree with the boycott of them by country music fans in this country or not, you have to at least admit that the protest worked against them. They have not had a country hit in this country since the boycott started.
    The Dixie Chicks thing was just silly to me. Seeing clips of people destroying their cds as if that somehow hurts the Dixie Chicks. Those people paid for those cds and are essentially flushing their money down the toilet. The Dixie Chicks are still around too. Granted, they aren't as successful as they used to be, but they are still out there and doing fairly well from what I've seen.

  7. #127
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    Re: The 53%: We are NOT Occupy Wall Street

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    I know what you mean, but that was also a different time. Now that the media largely controls the public perspective, it's hard to have your voice truly be heard. Plus, if said protest doesn't go in line with their agenda, they can easily smear it. The media has vastly changed since then as well.
    Yes, they were a different time.

    But they were also more focused. Protests do not work for general problems/complaints. And they certainly do not work when you are talking about a large group literally occupying a major city. The only pocketbooks the current protests are hurting are taxpayers, since they are causing cities to have to spend more money on cleanup and law enforcement, even if you don't count the LEO actions directly against protesters, as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    That's true, but those are also at a smaller level. I don't see OWS getting wall street or the government to change their practices.
    Which is basically what I am saying. Protests do not work on a large scale like this, so it is pointless to try. It would be much better to band together, get some actual leadership, find out what people want, and work at developing reasonable solutions to push for to the problems.

    Small scale protests do work though. There are many examples of small scale protests being effective, as long as they are something that many people can agree with.

    As for me, I would probably join a small-scale protest about the greed of Wall St. and its connections to our government. As long as there was an actual message and a reasonable goal to doing it. I am not wasting my time with general complaints protests. And I do not condone any violence or even yelling/threats against police officers. Protesters should fight their battles in court, not with the police. And they need to understand that their actions are affecting more than just those who they are protesting when such things go on for so long, on such a huge scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    The Dixie Chicks thing was just silly to me. Seeing clips of people destroying their cds as if that somehow hurts the Dixie Chicks. Those people paid for those cds and are essentially flushing their money down the toilet. The Dixie Chicks are still around too. Granted, they aren't as successful as they used to be, but they are still out there and doing fairly well from what I've seen.
    I agree with the whole destroying CDs you have already paid for, that is pretty stupid. I even said so when it was being done. (I was on the carrier in the Gulf when the comment was made and most of those protests were being done.)

    They were hurt big by the following boycott of their music though. Prior to the "incident", they were top of the charts in country music, including earning big country awards for the album they had just released, Home. They lost at least half of their original fans, if not more, here in the US. (I can't be counted, since, although I liked some Dixie Chick songs, I honestly didn't care for them overall. I am a Reba fan.) They are not doing great. They have released only one album since the comment, which was more of a political statement, than anything else. Then, they took a break and now, there are only 2 in the group and they changed their name. I don't see them coming back.
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  8. #128
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    Re: The 53%: We are NOT Occupy Wall Street

    .......snip
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke
    I will give one big example that comes to mind in recent history. The Dixie Chicks. Whether you agree with the boycott of them by country music fans in this country or not, you have to at least admit that the protest worked against them. They have not had a country hit in this country since the boycott started.
    From wikipedia:
    As of 2009, they have won 13 Grammy Awards, with 5 of them earned in 2007 including the coveted Grammy Award for Album of the Year for Taking the Long Way. As of July 2010, with 30.5 million certified albums,[3] and sales of 26,733,000 albums in the U.S., they have become the top selling all-female band in the U.S. during the Nielsen SoundScan era.[4]
    Who needs a number one hit when you have these stats?
    Last edited by d0gbreath; 11-01-11 at 01:52 PM.
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  9. #129
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    Re: The 53%: We are NOT Occupy Wall Street

    But they were also more focused. Protests do not work for general problems/complaints. And they certainly do not work when you are talking about a large group literally occupying a major
    I would disagree...the issues that are being discussed right now in the media was non-existent for years. I also think the Tea Party didn't put out a real message beyong "don't tax me bro" until they got co-opted by Republicans. Now the people that protested bailouts......want less regulation on wall street and tax breaks for wall street.

    In the words of the ESPN staff....come on man!
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  10. #130
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    Re: The 53%: We are NOT Occupy Wall Street

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Recent figures show that unemployment amongst college graduates today is still 4.7-5% and that they start at well above the median income. And funny but for a country with 'no jobs' we still have illegal immigrants pouring in and finding work. We have 114 legal immigrants an HOUR coming into this country and finding work. Yes...sometimes that is (gasp) menial labor and entry level work. Sometimes you have to work two of those jobs to make ends meet. Welcome to the real world. Next?
    Well the illegal immigration is actually slowing down. The wages for a lot of those jobs are artificially low, it would be hard to make a living; but you could for a short term get by. The real reason for those wages was that they hadn't adjusted in decades and what they paid someone 5 bucks in the 70's for, they still want to pay 5 bucks today. Without illegal immigration those wages would have increased and for certain jobs we would have hired an engineer to come up with a machine.

    Regardless, high sustained unemployment and a very tough market mean that people pay not be finding the jobs. The contention that these OWSers should just go home and get a job is countered by "what jobs!".
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