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Thread: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Swit View Post
    Well, I can definitely say without reservation that our two definitions of "Universal Standard of Morality" would differ greatly.
    That does not surprise me in the least, Swit.

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    That does not surprise me in the least, Swit.
    How can a standard of morality be both "Universal" and differentiate amongst different individuals?
    Last edited by Swit; 10-28-11 at 03:41 PM. Reason: bad gramatical usage

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Swit View Post
    How can a standard of morality be both "Universal" and differentiate amongst different individuals?
    The same way that Wrong trumps Right in our world all the time.... the fact that Human Beings are innately stupid creatures who fail to accept what is right in front of their eyes every day across the whole face of this planet. This also goes back to certain of my Spiritual/Religious beliefs, but this isn't the place for that discussion any more than it's probably the proper place for the conversation we are having.

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    The same way that Wrong trumps Right in our world all the time.... the fact that Human Beings are innately stupid creatures who fail to accept what is right in front of their eyes every day across the whole face of this planet. This also goes back to certain of my Spiritual/Religious beliefs, but this isn't the place for that discussion any more than it's probably the proper place for the conversation we are having.
    Agreed this is a conversation for a different thread / forum

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Swit View Post
    This video seems to paint a fairly clear picture of the situation. Admittedly the narration is definitely someone that sides with the protesters so feel free to simply watch it without sound. I am interested in your opinion of this particular video.
    It really doesn't sway me but I will explain why. First and foremost I graduated in Broadcasting which required quite a bit of communications theory, communications legal, journalism, and finally video/audio principles. We were a lucky curriculum in that we had "old school" instructors who were liberal but believed in teaching the true art of informing the public and not the modern philosophy of shaping coverage. That's a lot of background that I may have been wordy on but it sets this up, we were also taught "dirty tricks" in order for us to realize that there is alot of things that "don't happen" because they aren't on video or were shot from unflattering angles, etc. and thus I sledom trust video as in I feel that it has a tendancy to appeal to our "eye witness" primal instincts i.e. "if I didn't see it it didn't happen".

    I am not necessarily saying there were any dirty tricks played here but merely that it is a possibility. Also a possibility is that the shooter may not have been a pro and maybe didn't realize there were unintended biases that their lack of experience and theory of shooting, editing, etc. would not have discovered. One such bias that I see is the fact that this starts in the middle of the action and proceeds to the climax, I don't know what the causal actions were to lead up to the initial discharge, it does still seem to me that the police were holding back for safety and I had the sound up a little, enough to pick up "crowd noise", I didn't hear them declare intent which is absolutely necessary when dealing with armed officers. Not blaming the protesters mind you but raising the possibility that the police may have erred on the side of caution.

    There is one possibility left. The shooter of the video may have been a pro, not necessarily a pro shooter/editor but possibly a professional activist, these guys have no problem using skewed video to make a flawed premise stick. Michael Moore is one of the best examples of this, he will show you a shop owner charging out of his store cursing at him to make him look like an ass, but when you see the edited out footage you see Moore go into his shop and lob insults with the intent to draw the owner out into public domain where the footage is 100% protected and legal.

    Though I got wordy, this is why video tends to not sway me.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    It's nice to skim over the facts that multiple laws were broken, including obstruction which is not a minor crime. So it's okay to piss and **** in the streets as long as you call it "expression"? These "people" are completely in the wrong and I have no sympathy for them. These are not peaceful protests especially when you consider a good bit of the rhetoric coming out and the laws that are being broken.
    Blah blah blah...I hate protest I don't agree with! How dare those jerks occupy public land to air their grievances! Why there was poop in the street I tellz you!
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    It really doesn't sway me but I will explain why....
    (Direct quotation clipped for brevity)
    Thank you for your reply. Of course I happen to disagree, and I will explain in a minute. While fully understanding that this video does not sway your interpretations of the situation I am curious why there isn't a "fourth "possibility" that of a person just shooting such video and just trying to document what is going on. I just think this explanation sounds like a rationalization to ignore the obvious (no offense..... seriously this is NOT a personal attack)

    1. The view of the police behind the barricade is fairly consistent throughout the shooting, I don't ever see any of them get prepared for any kind of assault, i.e. brace for impact, raise shields, billy clubs, or even hurl/toss tear gas or shoot people with "bean bags" during the time when people are rushing. Actually, in my opinion the look relatively calm during the period where protesters are moving towards the wounded individual. This leads me to believe they did not feel directly threatened and/or frightened.
    2. In fact the only action I see the police take in this entire video is that of the one officer lobbing the flash bang into the crowd of protesters after the lot of them were kneeling and focusing on the wounded individual at what appears to be a good 10 feet or so away from the barricade. At this point in time I dont understand how anyone can make the argument the officer's felt threatened in any way.
    3. The wounded man was fairly close to the fence, having some experience with guns (I served in the infantry in the Marine Corps) its fairly hard to 'accidentally' hit someone/something that is about 10 feet or so away from you. I will admit to the possibility that the wounded man ran into the "line of fire". But if this is the case it still brings into question the legitimacy of the police using such methods that could result in a situation such as this.
    4. What kind of police officer lobs a concussion grenade near a wounded citizen for ANY reason anyway?

    Unfortunately after watching this I can only come to the conclusion that a single Law Enforcement officer acted extremely inappropriately, in fact I would say maliciously. (several if you include that none of the LE officers lifted a finger to help a wounded citizen).

    I really don't understand how anyone can come to a different conclusion. Although I understand opinions do and shall continue to differ.

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Swit View Post
    (Direct quotation clipped for brevity)
    Thank you for your reply. Of course I happen to disagree, and I will explain in a minute. While fully understanding that this video does not sway your interpretations of the situation I am curious why there isn't a "fourth "possibility" that of a person just shooting such video and just trying to document what is going on. I just think this explanation sounds like a rationalization to ignore the obvious (no offense..... seriously this is NOT a personal attack)

    1. The view of the police behind the barricade is fairly consistent throughout the shooting, I don't ever see any of them get prepared for any kind of assault, i.e. brace for impact, raise shields, billy clubs, or even hurl/toss tear gas or shoot people with "bean bags" during the time when people are rushing. Actually, in my opinion the look relatively calm during the period where protesters are moving towards the wounded individual. This leads me to believe they did not feel directly threatened and/or frightened.
    2. In fact the only action I see the police take in this entire video is that of the one officer lobbing the flash bang into the crowd of protesters after the lot of them were kneeling and focusing on the wounded individual at what appears to be a good 10 feet or so away from the barricade. At this point in time I dont understand how anyone can make the argument the officer's felt threatened in any way.
    3. The wounded man was fairly close to the fence, having some experience with guns (I served in the infantry in the Marine Corps) its fairly hard to 'accidentally' hit someone/something that is about 10 feet or so away from you. I will admit to the possibility that the wounded man ran into the "line of fire". But if this is the case it still brings into question the legitimacy of the police using such methods that could result in a situation such as this.
    4. What kind of police officer lobs a concussion grenade near a wounded citizen for ANY reason anyway?

    Unfortunately after watching this I can only come to the conclusion that a single Law Enforcement officer acted extremely inappropriately, in fact I would say maliciously. (several if you include that none of the LE officers lifted a finger to help a wounded citizen).

    I really don't understand how anyone can come to a different conclusion. Although I understand opinions do and shall continue to differ.
    First, don't worry I don't see any of that as a personal attack. I am always wary of video, even when I use it as evidence but that is my training kicking in so I don't find any problems with you using it either. The fourth possibility is also possible, I didn't think of it but your logic is sound so I will accept it as a possibility. I think that there are factors we just don't know so I won't necessarily affirm anything one way or the other. I give the benefit of the doubt to the police simply based on their duty to maintain order and enforce law, there really isn't much more to my view on it.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Blah blah blah...I hate protest I don't agree with! How dare those jerks occupy public land to air their grievances! Why there was poop in the street I tellz you!
    Some of the protesters are annoying but I don't hate them or the protests. In fact a good bit of the more uninformed in the crowd are quite amusing. What I don't like is breaking actual well formed and reasoned law and calling it peaceable assembly.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Swit View Post
    Yes our clamoring that the troops should NOT be in harms way in Iraq and Afghanistan to provide Halliburton, et. al. with profits is somehow analogous to "we hate the military"

    EDIT:

    My bad I intended this to be in response to:


    My apologies TIGGER
    ANd yet dems were A-OK with Bill Clinton going to war against the Serbs and granting an IDIQ to a sole source company to rebuild...now...what was the name of that company that Bill Clinton initially put under the IDIQ...what was it...OH YEAH...Haliburton...

    Geeeezus...hypocricy at its finest...

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