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Thread: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Which is why I'm all for a new Constitution that redefines these things as PRIVILEGES rather than RIGHTS.
    Yes our clamoring that the troops should NOT be in harms way in Iraq and Afghanistan to provide Halliburton, et. al. with profits is somehow analogous to "we hate the military"

    EDIT:

    My bad I intended this to be in response to:
    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Ack...my bad...liberals hate the military when a republican is president. As long as it is a democrat starting wars...its alllll gooood baby. Hypocrites.
    My apologies TIGGER
    Last edited by Swit; 10-28-11 at 01:43 PM. Reason: Mea Culpa

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    If I were an individual being charged by the police who are shooting flash bangs and tear gas to disperse protest against the government...I may be tempted to burn a few cops for freedom myself.
    It's nice to skim over the facts that multiple laws were broken, including obstruction which is not a minor crime. So it's okay to piss and **** in the streets as long as you call it "expression"? These "people" are completely in the wrong and I have no sympathy for them. These are not peaceful protests especially when you consider a good bit of the rhetoric coming out and the laws that are being broken.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Which is why I'm all for a new Constitution that redefines these things as PRIVILEGES rather than RIGHTS.
    At risk of being redundant (and I sincerely apologize)

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    -Benjamin Franklin

    I challenge anyone to explain how this quote does not directly apply to this situation. Granted it is merely his opinion, but it seems to me that Franklin is a fairly respected figure in our history both in terms of philosophy and benefial impact on American society.

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Swit View Post
    At risk of being redundant (and I sincerely apologize)

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    -Benjamin Franklin

    I challenge anyone to explain how this quote does not directly apply to this situation. Granted it is merely his opinion, but it seems to me that Franklin is a fairly respected figure in our history both in terms of philosophy and benefial impact on American society.
    Excellent question.

    With each passing day, in a variety of threads on this subject, the blatant hypocrisy of the right wingers becomes more and more and more obvious. When they talk about FREEDOM and LIBERTY, many on the far right only care about their own particular use of those terms and how they can benefit only themselves. When their hated enemies on the left attempt to use the rights that they profess to be so sacred, they quickly find lots of excuses to play ostirch, hide their heads in the sand, and allow the government to do what they want to do to stop people from exercising their rights.

    My single favorite excuse on this board came from a far rightie who said that the protests should be stopped because they were hurting local businesses and costing them revenue. When questioned about Wal Mart actually destroying local businesses they said what Wal Mart was doing was legal so they did not object to it. Amazing!!! The very people who are so quick to accuse progressives of being STATISTS resort to the STATIST argument to defend their lack of concern about Wal Mart destroying local businesses for the last couple of decades all over this land. "But its legal" they tell you.


    The level of hypocrisy in this issue dwarfs the highest mountain on the planet. And when you bring this up, THEY DO NOT DENY IT. Instead, that little rubber hammer comes into play and they are eager to point out some issues that the left is hypocritical about.......... as if that excuses their own actions.
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-28-11 at 01:46 PM.
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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Excellent question.

    With each passing day...
    I also am generally confused at the often conflicting viewpoints of those on the right.

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Swit View Post
    At risk of being redundant (and I sincerely apologize)

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    -Benjamin Franklin

    I challenge anyone to explain how this quote does not directly apply to this situation. Granted it is merely his opinion, but it seems to me that Franklin is a fairly respected figure in our history both in terms of philosophy and benefial impact on American society.
    I would suggest that Mr. Franklin lived in a time when the Men of his age were significantly superior beings to the boys and children that currently make up about 98% of the American male population these days. The Government Mr. Franklin and his fellows set up was never intended to be influenced by the RABBLE. That's why only a certain segment of the population was given the Right to Vote. The people most likely to be Informed and Educated on the matters of the day. Currently we allow every Tom, Jamal, Pedro, and Susan to have a say in the matters of the day and it has significantly degraded the construction that Mr. Franklin and his fellows put together more than two centuries ago. This would be an attempt to move back in the direction that Mr. Franklin and the Founding Fathers actually intended, thank you very much.


    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Excellent question.

    With each passing day, in a variety of threads on this subject, the blatant hypocrisy of the right wingers becomes more and more and more obvious. When they talk about FREEDOM and LIBERTY, many on the far right only care about their own particular use of those terms and how they can benefit only themselves. When their hated enemies on the left attempt to use the rights that they profess to be so sacred, they quickly find lots of excuses to play ostirch, hide their heads in the sand, and allow the government to do what they want to do to stop people from exercising their rights.
    I would ask you to please show me an instance where I have EVER suggested that Freedom and Liberty were essential concepts, or even ones that I support. I'm an Authoritarian. I've made no bones about that.

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    It's nice to skim over the facts that multiple laws were broken, including obstruction which is not a minor crime. So it's okay to piss and **** in the streets as long as you call it "expression"? These "people" are completely in the wrong and I have no sympathy for them. These are not peaceful protests especially when you consider a good bit of the rhetoric coming out and the laws that are being broken.
    If federal court (Cleveland has a suit pending and a temporary injunction against the City of Cleveland from taking restrictive actions again the protesters has been ordered) decides to uphold the protesters 1st Amendment rights.... Then essentially no laws would have been broken (except on an individual or case by case basis)

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    from Tigger to me

    I would ask you to please show me an instance where I have EVER suggested that Freedom and Liberty were essential concepts, or even ones that I support. I'm an Authoritarian. I've made no bones about that.
    Are you laboring under the delusion that I mentioned you by name?
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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I would suggest that Mr. Franklin lived in a time when the Men of his age were significantly superior beings to the boys and children that currently make up about 98% of the American male population these days. The Government Mr. Franklin and his fellows set up was never intended to be influenced by the RABBLE. That's why only a certain segment of the population was given the Right to Vote. The people most likely to be Informed and Educated on the matters of the day. Currently we allow every Tom, Jamal, Pedro, and Susan to have a say in the matters of the day and it has significantly degraded the construction that Mr. Franklin and his fellows put together more than two centuries ago. This would be an attempt to move back in the direction that Mr. Franklin and the Founding Fathers actually intended, thank you very much.
    I would argue that that the constitution (and as amended with the bill of rights) as written by the founding fathers speaks in direct opposition to the above quoted text but trying to debate someone on their personal feelings of other individuals' private thoughts that lived in a different era would be an effort in futility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I would ask you to please show me an instance where I have EVER suggested that Freedom and Liberty were essential concepts, or even ones that I support. I'm an Authoritarian. I've made no bones about that.
    So as an Authoritarian, would you support an Authoritarian Government that holds views in direct opposition to your own? And if so, why rally against our current government then, the vast majority of arguments akin to "Government is forcing me to do stuff I do not want to do" seems to be coming from those on your end of the political spectrum.

    EDIT: If you do not understand this obvious paradox then you fundamentally do not understand Franklin's original quote.
    Last edited by Swit; 10-28-11 at 02:28 PM. Reason: Clarification

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Swit View Post
    If federal court (Cleveland has a suit pending and a temporary injunction against the City of Cleveland from taking restrictive actions again the protesters has been ordered) decides to uphold the protesters 1st Amendment rights.... Then essentially no laws would have been broken (except on an individual or case by case basis)
    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you've never run across my stance on appeals to the court so I will reiterate. I do not respect the appeals to the court argument since the courts tend to have a particular lean, while their decisions do in fact hold legal weight they do not always necessarily render the best and most constitutional decision. Here is the problem, yes we have freedom of speech and it is an incredibly important right but it is also prone to abuse which is why the limits of said speech and assembly have been largely tackled in the 20th century. While the protesters do have the right to peaceably assemble they do not have the right simply to assembly, peaceable assembly requires a non-violent message AND(very important) adherence to basic laws and the rights of others.

    On the adherence issue: "Free Speech zones" are not good, they are an abomination, this isn't the issue just an example of an unjust law. What we have here is basic laws such as obstruction, illegal camping, and sanitation issues that are not being adhered to which a city has every right to enforce. People must be allowed to speak however they cannot just use the bathroom in a public area, they cannot block streets and obstruct others who are trying to perform their duties, they cannot camp in public parks and cannot obstruct police actions(they especially cannot endanger officers in the line of duty). There is no excuse for any of the above and those actions are not within the rights of speech or assembly regardless of what an appeals court has decided, even though they have ruled on it and hold weight.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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