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Thread: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

  1. #231
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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Just goes to prove the old adage...its always fun and games, til someone gets hurt.

    Regardless of what you think, you dont have the 'right' to do whatever you want, wherever you want, and however you want and you damn sure arent the arbiter of law. Protest...fine...have a ball. When the police say...OK...this has to stop, then the true 'peaceful' protester will say, you bet, officer...we'll stop...regroup, figure it out, and come back and press on.
    I cannot abide this form of argument as it subjugates assembly and protest to the decree of State. They can just say "protest is not allowed within 30 miles of the city" and y'all would be saying "well that's the law and you shouldn't try to break it, if you want to peacefully assemble and protest go to the circle in middle of the corn field that government said was the only place you can protest; but otherwise STFU dirty hippie".

    No, government is restricted from infringing upon our rights; and that includes assembly and protest. This rights must be upheld to their fullest. It is essential in the process of keeping this Republic.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    If the assembled are not peaceful, then law enforcement must enforce the peace.
    but what if it's not peaceful because government made it not peaceful?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #233
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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I cannot abide this form of argument as it subjugates assembly and protest to the decree of State. They can just say "protest is not allowed within 30 miles of the city" and y'all would be saying "well that's the law and you shouldn't try to break it, if you want to peacefully assemble and protest go to the circle in middle of the corn field that government said was the only place you can protest; but otherwise STFU dirty hippie".

    No, government is restricted from infringing upon our rights; and that includes assembly and protest. This rights must be upheld to their fullest. It is essential in the process of keeping this Republic.
    Then by all means...dont 'abide' it. Go violate laws while you refuse to 'abide' it. Tell us how it all works out.

    The idea of personal freedoms INCLUDES respecting other peoples rights and freedoms. There is a reason why you cant jjst do whatever the **** you want on public land. Others use the sidewalks. Others use the roads. Others use the parks and others use public buildings. You having your ass chaffed and deciding you want to go protest is FINE...provided you dont obstruct your neighbor while he goes to work. Thats the rule. You dont like it...fine. Violate the rules...but pretend it wont come with consequences.

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    Militarism is very different from the military. Work on your vocabulary.
    Ack...my bad...liberals hate the military when a republican is president. As long as it is a democrat starting wars...its alllll gooood baby. Hypocrites.

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, government is restricted from infringing upon our rights; and that includes assembly and protest. This rights must be upheld to their fullest. It is essential in the process of keeping this Republic.
    Which is why I'm all for a new Constitution that redefines these things as PRIVILEGES rather than RIGHTS.

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Which is why I'm all for a new Constitution that redefines these things as PRIVILEGES rather than RIGHTS.
    Yeah, you're more than free to call for that. I'd probably shoot you in the face should you actually try to take my freedom; but I also doubt that everyone is such a pussy that they'd have to give up all their rights and liberties.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I cannot abide this form of argument as it subjugates assembly and protest to the decree of State. They can just say "protest is not allowed within 30 miles of the city" and y'all would be saying "well that's the law and you shouldn't try to break it, if you want to peacefully assemble and protest go to the circle in middle of the corn field that government said was the only place you can protest; but otherwise STFU dirty hippie".

    No, government is restricted from infringing upon our rights; and that includes assembly and protest. This rights must be upheld to their fullest. It is essential in the process of keeping this Republic.
    We have the right to peaceably assemble. Nationwide, these protests have had public defication(illegal, disgusting, unsanitary), public urination(illegal,disgusting,unsanitary), there have been reports of rape, statutory rape, theft, etc. Let's not forget that there is an ordinance in most major cities forbidding camping in public parks, camping is not assembly....it is squatting. Finally, when the police tell you they are enforcing a law and it is time to move on it is time to move on and not time to charge the police. I'll tell you this, I have seen enough dumbasses turn a warning into jail time in my partying days just by being a smartass when they were in the wrong, they said the same thing as these protesters that they had rights, then they found out that they didn't have the rights they thought they had.

    One last thing, if I were an officer and someone charged me I would not show the restraint these guys did and simply gas someone, someone would probably have taken a baton across the bridge of the nose. If someone thinks that is harsh, too bad as I don't like taking a scratch or bruise because some idiot felt like the faux morality they hold to is superior to my safety or ability to do my job.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yeah, you're more than free to call for that. I'd probably shoot you in the face should you actually try to take my freedom; but I also doubt that everyone is such a pussy that they'd have to give up all their rights and liberties.
    Ah, but it's all in the Marketing, Ikari. So long as you can follow the rules and color betwen the philosophical lines, you lose nothing. Only when you choose to color outside of the lines or break the rules is there a problem. You know as well as I do that the sheeple of this country are easily manipulated by even the slightest hint of logic. They'll tie the knot in the rope for their own necks, if you let them.

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    One last thing, if I were an officer and someone charged me I would not show the restraint these guys did and simply gas someone, someone would probably have taken a baton across the bridge of the nose. If someone thinks that is harsh, too bad as I don't like taking a scratch or bruise because some idiot felt like the faux morality they hold to is superior to my safety or ability to do my job.
    If I were an individual being charged by the police who are shooting flash bangs and tear gas to disperse protest against the government...I may be tempted to burn a few cops for freedom myself.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Occupy Oakland Attacked By Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets, and Flash Grenades

    OK, seriously, instead of hyper-partisan talking points and emotionally charged rhetoric why don't we take a peek at the specifics of this issue as it appears that this thread has been effectively derailed from the original topic of conversation.

    For those in support of the actions the police took I have a couple question so I can further understand your point of view:

    1. The Mayor authorized the actions of the police by inferring there were health and public safety issues at stake in the park the protesters were occupying.... can someone explain to me what these exact issues were?
    Generally, speaking people tend to believe that the more people that are present the greater the security of the general environment, i.e. I believe most people would feel more secure walking down a populated sidewalk or through a well populated park late at night rather than the same park or sidewalk with no one visibly present. If nothing else it provides more witnesses to any particular crime that may take place. In terms of public health, I have yet to hear any physician warning that is any sort of risk of any epidemic breaking out due to the environment the occupiers were keeping.

    2. As far as public safety is concerned, and in particular having seen the results in retrospect, is there really any argument that suggests the manner the police employed did not in fact increase public safety concerns as opposed to diminish them?
    The evidence to me seems fairly clear that the methods the police employed in this particular situation created an environment where both the safety of the police and the protesters was significantly compromised. To use an adaptation of the "Crowded Theater" analogy: Consider a crowded theater in which a bomb was discovered. Would it be preferable for the authorities to attempt to evacuate orderly row by row with a reasonable modicum of force for those that refuse (i.e. hand cuffing and physically removing) or, as it is more relevant in this situation, if the vast majority are refusing to budge, by lobbing tear gas and flash bangs in order to accomplish removal of said citizens? In essence there are swaths of videos showing protesters being peaceably removed (albeit forcibly), and a relatively small amount of video showing protesters 'fighting' back. While no official tally has been released here in Chicago... adding up the news reports, some 350+ protesters have been arrested with approximately 15-20 for disorderly conduct or resisting arrest and as yet I can find, nor have heard of, any here that have been arrested for assault on a police officer in regard to the protests. To me this implies that the use of enhanced crowd/riot control measures (tear gas and flash bangs) was not warranted.

    3. Keeping Health and public safety issues in mind, there is a long list or reasonable, "Time, Place, and Manner" restrictions that local, State, and Federal courts have all upheld with regard to people's 1st amendment rights. In an effort to be honest isn't this the real issue at hand as opposed to those of health and public safety?
    The incident in Cleveland cited these restrictions as their basis for eviction of the protesters. A lower court issued a TRO (Temporary Restraining Order) against Local Government with regard to issuance of fine or removing the protesters by force. The court quickly ruled that Local government was not infringing upon the rights of the citizens and the arrests resumed. However, occupiers in Cleveland appealed to Federal courts and the City of Cleveland quickly issued a permit for 24 hour occupancy until Nov. 9th. This was in an attempt to prevent Federal court from issuing an official injunction prohibiting the City of Cleveland from taking action against the protesters. Interestingly enough, the Federal Court ordered the temporary injunction anyway (inferring that there may be a violation of 1st amendment rights taking place) and all we can do now is await the outcome.

    My predictions:

    Court rules against protesters:
    Those in favor of protesters: "Crap..... we have to figure out another way to stay here" - bummer in my opinion and should this happen short of appealing to SCOTUS the protesters no longer have any real leg to stand on.
    (we do not agree but the ruling is Legitimate)
    Those NOT in favor: "See.... Federal Judiciary has determined that reasonable time place and manner restrictions ARE appropriate thus you do NOT have a Constitutionally Protected Right to protest in this manner" - And they Would be correct.
    (We agree and the ruling is legitimate)

    Court rules in favor of the protesters
    Those in favor of protesters: "One small step for Civil Liberties.... One Giant leap for OWS"
    (We agree and the ruling is legitimate)
    Those NOT in favor: "Damn activist Judges, legislating from the bench, how dare they rule in a manner which is in opposition to my own personal beliefs."
    (we do NOT agree and thus the ruling is illegitimate)

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