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Thread: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Socialistic policies are normally championed at the bottom. This idea that a large bottom rung in a society will continue to nickel and dime their way through life living in poverty is interesting because that's never been the case. Order is good for commerce, continuity are good for commerce, disparity and widespread poverty are not good for either order or continuity.
    Socialist policies are 'championed' by the wealthy and elite and promoted to the peons for their support. The are supported by the peons who one, are stupid enough to believe those people care about them and two, buy into the concept of others doing for them for a lifetime as opposed to working hard to provide for themselves.

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Socialist policies are 'championed' by the wealthy and elite and promoted to the peons for their support. The are supported by the peons who one, are stupid enough to believe those people care about them and two, buy into the concept of others doing for them for a lifetime as opposed to working hard to provide for themselves.
    I disagree. "Socialist policies" (like public parks, the post office, welfare, etc.) are available to all citizens who qualify whenever they qualify. A library, for example, is open to anyone who seeks knowledge, not just people who are too lazy or poor to buy books.

    You might say a social safety net is different than a library, but I'd argue that a social safety net, like a library, is there to serve anyone who needs it, even if they used to make millions. If you allow that people move through socio-economic classes as they move through life, you should be able to recognize that even someone who will one day be a CEO might today need to be caught in a social safety net.

    If people are using social safety nets for a lifetime, it could be a sign of their personal failings. Or it could be a sign that our socioeconomic classes are becoming entrenched. I think it's a mix of both, actually, based on macroeconomic data I've seen.
    Last edited by GhostlyJoe; 10-26-11 at 03:17 PM.

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    "We the people" is not "I the person."

    The gist I get from your Constitution is that working together will result in the greater good of society. The gist that I get from many here at DP is every man should be out for themselves. To me, it's not a reflection on the principles started by your forefathers.
    You really need to stop posting this stuff, and I hope you're just being political here and don't actually believe what you're saying.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Socialist policies are 'championed' by the wealthy and elite and promoted to the peons for their support. The are supported by the peons who one, are stupid enough to believe those people care about them and two, buy into the concept of others doing for them for a lifetime as opposed to working hard to provide for themselves.
    Ha! Such a broad generalized view of anyone that believes in social safety nets. Apparently you have it all figured out.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    I have friends who do a great deal of business in China.

    According to them, China is beginning to see some of the same problems as we are on a shorter time scale.

    Their new middle class is squawking about air quality. Raises in minimum wages over there are driving businesses to Malaysia and Vietnam. (Kind of putting the lie to the idea that its taxes and regulations that are driving businesses overseas)
    Capitalistic China has seen a great boom in wealth, but they will always have problems under their nominal Communist government. And the lose of manufacturing will always be true in a developed society. The greatest resource of man is not his strength, for that is duplicated and exceed by numerous creatures of the animal kingdom, and tools and robots that we have invented. The greatest resource of man is his intellect - and that resource will only be utilized in a white-collar society. Loss of manufacturing is the other side of the coin to growth of high-techs and entrepreneurship.

    Capitalism is by far the best system devised for turning respurces into wealth.
    No argument here.

    However, as it is concentrative by its very nature, it is not inherently the ideal means of distributing what the world produces.

    ALL economic philosophies are about the "divvy up", when its all said and done.
    You are confusing apples and oranges. First off, economic philosophies are not just about "divvying up" resources: it's about maximizing wealth. Also, concentration of wealth isn't a problem. Let me give an example: say I have a society of 100 people, and each person has $100 worth of resources. If, they use the capitalistic system, say the 100 people end up with 1 person who has $10k, and the other 99 end up with $110. How is this any worse that a socialist system, which would end up with (and I'm being generous), every person with $101. I'd much rather live in the shadow of the megawealthy and have more money than be equally in poverty with everyone else.

    If people had to devise a system for themselves to live in, without knowing where their place in the economic scheme would be, there is no way they would come up with our current iteration of capitalism.

    Too much chance of being one of the "ain't got nothin, ain't never gonna have nothing" class.
    You're forgetting that capitalism, and only capitalism, provides a chance to be one of the "megawealthy who gets to fly around in a private jet and wipe his ass with $100 bills." There is a reason that people gamble and buy lottery tickets: the allure of success is much, much more powerful than the almost inevitable loss. In fact, if you've done much research in to the behavior of humans and the thought processes of the human mind, you'd see that capitalism is the only economic system that would have naturally occurred. The social and welfare programs we have created in our country today are an appeasement to those fears you've highlighted, but only came about because a group of people in an unnatural order (government) decided that this is what is best for everyone.

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    I disagree. "Socialist policies" (like public parks, the post office, welfare, etc.) are available to all citizens who qualify whenever they qualify. A library, for example, is open to anyone who seeks knowledge, not just people who are too lazy or poor to buy books.

    You might say a social safety net is different than a library, but I'd argue that a social safety net, like a library, is there to serve anyone who needs it, even if they used to make millions. If you allow that people move through socio-economic classes as they move through life, you should be able to recognize that even someone who will one day be a CEO might today need to be caught in a social safety net.

    If people are using social safety nets for a lifetime, it could be a sign of their personal failings. Or it could be a sign that our socioeconomic classes are becoming entrenched. I think it's a mix of both, actually, based on macroeconomic data I've seen.
    Im not opposed to providing social services...they just should be provided locally or at the state level and should be run efficiently. In a perfect world, the social services we have in this country would be directed towards those that need it, not just those who fail miserably in life. Some people NEED help. Some people NEED a hand up. Im all about providing that. Im opposed to the whiny people that believe they are 'entitled' to something they dont work for and are capable of. I also dont buy into the 'social entrenchment' bull****. Success and social elevation is as possible today and yesterday...it just takes hard work.

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Ha! Such a broad generalized view of anyone that believes in social safety nets. Apparently you have it all figured out.
    When capable people treat a 'safety net' like a hammock...we have a problem.

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Im not opposed to providing social services...they just should be provided locally or at the state level and should be run efficiently. In a perfect world, the social services we have in this country would be directed towards those that need it, not just those who fail miserably in life. Some people NEED help. Some people NEED a hand up. Im all about providing that. Im opposed to the whiny people that believe they are 'entitled' to something they dont work for and are capable of. I also dont buy into the 'social entrenchment' bull****. Success and social elevation is as possible today and yesterday...it just takes hard work.
    This is probably the nicest breeze of fresh air I've seen in a long time. Would you mind running for office much?

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    When capable people treat a 'safety net' like a hammock...we have a problem.
    Which I would generally agree with.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Im not opposed to providing social services...they just should be provided locally or at the state level and should be run efficiently. In a perfect world, the social services we have in this country would be directed towards those that need it, not just those who fail miserably in life. Some people NEED help. Some people NEED a hand up. Im all about providing that. Im opposed to the whiny people that believe they are 'entitled' to something they dont work for and are capable of. I also dont buy into the 'social entrenchment' bull****. Success and social elevation is as possible today and yesterday...it just takes hard work.
    I don't entirely disagree with you here. I do think social mobility is more difficult now than in some periods of America's history, but I can't honestly defend fraud, waste and abuse in our entitlement programs. I would argue they need to be well designed and well policed, but I prefer having social safety nets to not, noting that such programs will always create some perverse incentives as a trade-off.

    Practically speaking, could our states realistically replace Medicare and Medicaid without completely overhauling our current system of government and raising local taxes considerably?

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