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Thread: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

  1. #71
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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Sure it does, Capitalism does thrive when there are socialistic policies in place. Mixed economies with market and socialists policies represents every modern economy in the world.
    Look at pretty much every university in the world...all those corporations spewing socialist rhetoric to the little sponges (who pay out the ass for their 'lessons') who nod their heads like little chihuaha bobble head dogs in the back window...until they graduate from college and want to go to WORK. Suddenly...they dont really live those socialist 'ideals'. Your impression is backward. Capitalism thrives. In many places, they institute socialist policies, sometimes even for the greater good...but make no mistake...capitalism enables socialism...not the other way around.
    Last edited by VanceMack; 10-26-11 at 01:19 PM.

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Look at pretty much every university in the world...all those corporations spewing socialist rhetoric to the little sponges (who pay out the ass for their 'lessons') who nod their heads like little chihuaha bobble head dogs in the back window...until they graduate from college and want to go to WORK. Suddenly...they dont really live those socialist 'ideals'. Your impression is backward. Capitalism thrives. In many places, they institute socialist policies, sometimes even for the greater good...but make no mistake...capitalism enables socialism...not the other way around.
    Socialistic policies are normally championed at the bottom. This idea that a large bottom rung in a society will continue to nickel and dime their way through life living in poverty is interesting because that's never been the case. Order is good for commerce, continuity are good for commerce, disparity and widespread poverty are not good for either order or continuity.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Just because the Russians failed abysmally to implement a socialist system hardly means that everyone else would do the same. The USSR took a fascist military dictatorship and tried to dress it up like socialism. In 1918, they went directly from centuries of aristocracy and monarchy to an attempt at democracy that was actually controlled by military interests. They had no notion of securing freedoms and a supreme law that no one, not even the nation's leaders, could break. They didn't have a tradition of freedom and liberty to base their new system on. They had a tradition of tyranny and oppression, and that's what their new idea was modeled after.

    Conversely, in the United States, we already presume that a supreme law, protected freedoms, and open elections are fundamental. A socialist system in this country would look nothing like the Soviet one. It would be rooted in the principals of the American republic.

    To suggest that every socialist system would look like the USSR would be like suggesting that every democratic system would look like South Korea or India. Here's a hint, they don't have a lot of the civil rights we have. They'll railroad an accused suspect, torture a confession out of them, and seldom give someone a truly fair trial. They also limit freedoms of speech and the press.

    I would say that it is this woman who does not know what she is talking about, or rather that is overextending her experiences and does not realize that a military dictatorship is a terrible system no matter how you dress it up. Whether it calls itself socialism like the USSR or China, or calls itself democratic like Congo, it's still a fascist, military regime. American socialists do not call for a military takeover of the country. A socialist United States would look nothing like the USSR. To think otherwise is to completely fail to understand why the USSR operated the way it did.
    The message is bull****, it's those that 'like' the post that I'd like to give special notice to.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Carefully read these words, folks:

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    I now have to ask. Is there anything more socialist than these words???
    “No men are anywhere, and I’m allowed to go in, because I’m the owner of the pageant and therefore I’m inspecting it,” Trump said... “‘Is everyone OK’? You know, they’re standing there with no clothes. ‘Is everybody OK?’ And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.”

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Carefully read these words, folks:

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    I now have to ask. Is there anything more socialist than these words???
    So forming Unions, establishing justice, ensuring domestic peace and providing common defense are socialist agendas?

    Here I thought socialism centered around putting the main means of production and ownership squarely in cooperative quarters.

    Boy oh boy - have I been wrong
    A screaming comes across the sky.
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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Carefully read these words, folks:

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    I now have to ask. Is there anything more socialist than these words???
    It must be these:

    Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    • The USPS is run by the Federal government. It's hemmoraging red ink. DHL found the market changed around it. It went out of business...which is exactly what should happen to the USPS.
    • Medicare is run by the Federal government. It's hemmoraging red ink.
    • Social Security is run by the Federal government. It's hemmoraging red ink.
    • Obamacare is a Socialistic program in the making. It will, in its final form, hemmorage red ink.
    • Public schools waste money from the top down. Inner-city schools are abject failures.


    Here'sa big surprise. Property taxes don't go down.

    Got any more ostrich comments?
    There is fundamental assumption you're making that doesn't apply. Hemorrhaging red ink implies that these programs are designed to bring return, but really their existence is the return. The whole point of the public space is to operate outside market forces.

    A public park, for example, or a library is funded from the public coffers to provide an open, common area for the community, where the socio-economic structure has no bearing. Everyone in the community has equal access and equal ownership, regardless of actual use.

    I don't agree with underfunding our public institutions or propping them up via the national credit card, but their outright elimination will only bring down quality of life.

    The dismissal of all things "socialism" is easy but purely emotional. I prefer a rational approach to the public sphere, not its dismantling to serve some poorly formed notion of economic bigotry or some utopian capitalist ideal.

    Some free-marketers are every bit as starry-eyed as the socialists they admonish.
    Last edited by GhostlyJoe; 10-26-11 at 01:48 PM.

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    So forming Unions, establishing justice, ensuring domestic peace and providing common defense are socialist agendas?

    Here I thought socialism centered around putting the main means of production and ownership squarely in cooperative quarters.

    Boy oh boy - have I been wrong
    "We the people" is not "I the person."

    The gist I get from your Constitution is that working together will result in the greater good of society. The gist that I get from many here at DP is every man should be out for themselves. To me, it's not a reflection on the principles started by your forefathers.
    Last edited by Middleground; 10-26-11 at 01:53 PM.
    “No men are anywhere, and I’m allowed to go in, because I’m the owner of the pageant and therefore I’m inspecting it,” Trump said... “‘Is everyone OK’? You know, they’re standing there with no clothes. ‘Is everybody OK?’ And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.”

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    So forming Unions, establishing justice, ensuring domestic peace and providing common defense are socialist agendas?

    Here I thought socialism centered around putting the main means of production and ownership squarely in cooperative quarters.

    Boy oh boy - have I been wrong
    Seems like the definition of "socialism" changes from poster to poster and from post to post.

    In the loosest sense, the police force and the court system are socialist, in the same way Obamacare is socialist. And only the loosest definition of socialism can be used to lump the Occupy protests in the with the USSR.

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    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick2253 View Post
    Very much so. All you need to do is look at China: when China converted to capitalistic markets, they say HUGE increases in wealth, production, and standards of living. If you want more examples, look at other Asian nations, the US, Europe, and South Africa.
    I have friends who do a great deal of business in China.

    According to them, China is beginning to see some of the same problems as we are on a shorter time scale.

    Their new middle class is squawking about air quality. Raises in minimum wages over there are driving businesses to Malaysia and Vietnam. (Kind of putting the lie to the idea that its taxes and regulations that are driving businesses overseas)

    Capitalism is by far the best system devised for turning respurces into wealth.

    However, as it is concentrative by its very nature, it is not inherently the ideal means of distributing what the world produces.

    ALL economic philosophies are about the "divvy up", when its all said and done.

    If people had to devise a system for themselves to live in, without knowing where their place in the economic scheme would be, there is no way they would come up with our current iteration of capitalism.

    Too much chance of being one of the "ain't got nothin, ain't never gonna have nothing" class.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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