Page 11 of 13 FirstFirst ... 910111213 LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 123

Thread: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

  1. #101
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,465

    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    1) They aren't paying taxes because businesses aren't paying them high enough wages so they are able to pay taxes. If we raised the wages of these workers, they wouldn't have to be on the government teat.

    2) They don't hate capitalism. And they aren't even socialist. What they are is jobless. And they can't get jobs worth their education. Why? Because corporations don't want to pay for that.
    Labor is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. IOW, it's all about supply and demand. When there is a shortage of labor and an abundance of capital, wages will rise and vice-versa.

    Basically, whenever the government kills jobs, they are only hurting the working class, because the labor supply rises, while the supply of capital remains the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  2. #102
    Advisor Nick2253's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Last Seen
    05-15-12 @ 10:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    321

    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    1) They aren't paying taxes because businesses aren't paying them high enough wages so they are able to pay taxes. If we raised the wages of these workers, they wouldn't have to be on the government teat.
    That's wishful thinking. Look at countries like Sweden, Germany, and France. Even though the workers they may make more money, they still suckle on the government teat. Furthermore, how do you propose we raise the wages of the workers? Shall we mandate with the government a higher wage? Or how about we actually make the workers more valuable, so they will earn the higher wage they will get paid. People don't get that labor, like anything else, is a commodity, and it's up to the worker to make their labor appear more valuable than any of the others.

    2) They don't hate capitalism. And they aren't even socialist. What they are is jobless. And they can't get jobs worth their education. Why? Because corporations don't want to pay for that.
    At the heart of this problem is that a Masters of Fine Arts in Early Chinese Wheel Throwing is more expensive than a Bachelors of Science in Engineering, but people still get one all the same. For these people, their education is worthless, so being jobless is right on the money.

  3. #103
    Sage
    samsmart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    10,316
    Blog Entries
    37

    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Labor is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. IOW, it's all about supply and demand. When there is a shortage of labor and an abundance of capital, wages will rise and vice-versa.
    The only problem with that is we now live in a global economy, and so there can be no shortage of labor.

    Corporations whined that labor costs in the U.S. is too high, so they move their manufacturing to China. And if the earlier post was correct, labor costs in China are rising, and so corporations are moving to Vietnam.

    And if corporations are going to continue to this race to the bottom with regards to all wages it will ultimately hurt these businesses themselves. If corporations aren't willing to pay the wages necessary to maintain a middle class then there won't be any people who can afford their products.

    Competitor: "Why do you pay your workers salaries higher than all the other auto companies pay their workers?"
    Henry Ford: "So they can afford to buy my cars."
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  4. #104
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,465

    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    2) They don't hate capitalism. And they aren't even socialist. What they are is jobless. And they can't get jobs worth their education. Why? Because corporations don't want to pay for that.
    They should have picked more lucritive professions. It's their own fault for not researching their career endeavors. It's just like a business man that wants to start a new business. He must way the risks. Obviosuly, alot of the OWS'ers didn't way the risks They failed to ask themselves: "What if I can't land a job in this field? How will I pay off all those student loans?". If they didn't do that, then I don't have any sympathy for them. They rolled the dice and came up craps, tough ****, welcome to the real world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  5. #105
    Dungeon Master
    Somewhere in Babylon
    Jetboogieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Somewhere in Babylon...
    Last Seen
    @
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,296
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    They should have picked more lucritive professions. It's their own fault for not researching their career endeavors. It's just like a business man that wants to start a new business. He must way the risks. Obviosuly, alot of the OWS'ers didn't way the risks They failed to ask themselves: "What if I can't land a job in this field? How will I pay off all those student loans?". If they didn't do that, then I don't have any sympathy for them. They rolled the dice and came up craps, tough ****, welcome to the real world.
    So if it's their own fault they're unemployed, that means that all 9% of people unemployed are so by their own fault, and no one elses.

    Which means it's not Obamas fault...

  6. #106
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,465

    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    The only problem with that is we now live in a global economy, and so there can be no shortage of labor.

    Corporations whined that labor costs in the U.S. is too high, so they move their manufacturing to China. And if the earlier post was correct, labor costs in China are rising, and so corporations are moving to Vietnam.

    And if corporations are going to continue to this race to the bottom with regards to all wages it will ultimately hurt these businesses themselves. If corporations aren't willing to pay the wages necessary to maintain a middle class then there won't be any people who can afford their products.
    Then, someone is going to have to give. It's a global economy? Well, the United States will have to figure out how to compete. That's may mean that the backing off of regulations and punitive taxes, frivilous spending, etc. I know this sounds crazy, but maybe we shouldn't be pumping billions into green companies that we know will go belly up, or are located in Finland.

    We have a great big energy industry in this country that creates trillions in non-tax revenue for the government. Are we taking advantage of it? Why, hell no!

    A wise old man told me years ago: "You can't leave money on the table and then bitch because you're not making enough money".
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  7. #107
    Advisor Nick2253's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Last Seen
    05-15-12 @ 10:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    321

    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    The only problem with that is we now live in a global economy, and so there can be no shortage of labor.

    Corporations whined that labor costs in the U.S. is too high, so they move their manufacturing to China. And if the earlier post was correct, labor costs in China are rising, and so corporations are moving to Vietnam.

    And if corporations are going to continue to this race to the bottom with regards to all wages it will ultimately hurt these businesses themselves. If corporations aren't willing to pay the wages necessary to maintain a middle class then there won't be any people who can afford their products.
    Poor people in this country seem to afford a lot just fine. And, don't forget, not all labor is created equal. I have an engineering degree, and work in a law firm, and I consider my labor to be more valuable than the average bear. My skills are my intellect and training, and I'm very proud of those. Our global economy teaches us that manufacturing labor is not nearly as valuable as it used to be. However, white-collar work is far more valuable than it ever has been.

  8. #108
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,465

    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    So if it's their own fault they're unemployed, that means that all 9% of people unemployed are so by their own fault, and no one elses.

    Which means it's not Obamas fault...
    'Where did I say that? I'll save you the trouble, I didn't. Go ahead and admit it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #109
    Guru
    GhostlyJoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    here
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    2,708

    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    the states WOULD have to raise taxes, but without the layers of federal bull****eacracy the federal tax burden would be significantly reduced and the resources would be much more directly managed and applied. It makes no sense to send 70 billion to the fed in taxes for the Dept of Ed for example, have them absorb 35 billion in operating costs, and then graciously return 35 billion back to the states. Medicare...medicade...we know they are being buried in fraud annually. Again...much easier to manage locally. I think if people saw their money and where it was actually going they would be more likely to vote and we would have much higher turnout at local elections than we do now (which is embarassingly low).
    I'm certainly open to the idea of state-run programs. But there would be complications from the lack of consistent policy.

    I know from experience that local schools bend over backward for federal monies that are so tightly earmarked they become nearly impractical for dealing with a district's core needs, which is fine for districts with a solid tax base, but tends to divorce struggling schools from funding where its most needed. The lack of local flexibility you cite is a real problem.

    But the flip side: Without federal funding for Title I, why would a local district spend on such a program? It's not that the program isn't useful for a minority of students, but upgrading the bleachers at the football stadium might be more attractive. To provide a baseline education, there is some need for standardization.

    So, in short, I'm open to persuasion on this issue. I'd be interested to see policy proposals.

  10. #110
    Guru
    GhostlyJoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    here
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    2,708

    Re: Former Soviet Union citizen confronts Socialists at an Occupy protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    As with all things... moderation is needed. I like libraries, I like the post office, I like that those who have fallen on hard times can be given a chance to get back what they lost or improve themselves. I don't like when things are taken to the extreme and the arguments for 99 weeks of unemployment are used, or those who game the system are allowed to do so. Just as there needs to be some social assistance, there also needs to be some independence and a need to be more self sufficient to balance it all out.
    I agree that we need balance. I suspect the two of us might arrange the weights differently, but I appreciate what you're saying here.

Page 11 of 13 FirstFirst ... 910111213 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •