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Thread: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Some, SOME tried to amend the consistution to ban gay marriage. You have no factual evidence what so ever that everyone, or even a significantly large majority, of individuals who consider themselves socially conservative were in favor of banning gay marriage. Not to mention that the entire notion has to a point become distorted due to the demonization of the term in and of itself to somehow equate "socially conservative" to "Religious Right, enforce social views on people through government" as if they're synonyms.
    And many social conservatives supported such an Amendment, but now social conservatives are trying to revise history and claim that there were against such an amendment and using big government to force their values onto everyone else.

    I have heard it all now.


    The irony of you talking about someone spewing lies.

    Yes, some social conservatives and the majority of the Religious Right are for big government. However, you're the one whose "spewing" things by implying repeatedly that somehow that being socially conservative requires one to also support authoritarian enforcement of said social views, which is just patentedly false.

    Its 100%, completely possible to be Socially Conservative and in favor of Small Government, including in regards to social issues. Your implications to the otherwise are the statements that are running against the truth, not mine. Ron Paul is actually a rather clear example of someone who is both Socially Consrevative and Governmentally Conservative.
    Ron Paul is an aberration and not the norm of social conservativism. Plus, Ron Paul supported the concept of DOMA and DADT before he changed his mind that he wanted government out of marriage. It was only very recently that he took a more libertarian stance.

    Again, your lies are duly noticed.
    Last edited by Antiderivative; 10-25-11 at 06:01 PM.

  2. #122
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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Unfortunately for you, what Zyphlin has said is not a sack of lies, but rather a nuanced approach to looking at social conservatism's relationship with the rest of conservatism (which struck me as the main issue with your post). Further, it was also whether or not one's big government social conservatism prevented one from being thought of as conservative, and so on. His only fault was that he was more patient than I in elaborating for someone who clearly does not want to temper his previous assertions.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 10-25-11 at 06:08 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Unfortunately for you, what Zyphlin has said is not a sack of lies, but rather a nuanced approach to looking at social conservatism's relationship with the rest of conservatism (which struck me as the main issue with your post). Further, it was also whether or not one's big government social conservatism prevented one from being thought of as conservative, and so on. His only fault was that he was more patient than I in elaborating for someone who clearly does not want to temper his previous assertions.
    I realize that there are a few aberrations out there. However, the majority of social conservatives use the government to instill their brand of morality onto the rest of us. Your attempts to distort and twist reality are duly noticed.

    Anything else?

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    And many social conservatives supported such an Amendment
    I never suggested otherwise. You're not going to find me ever stating that there aren't a large amount of social conservatives who forgo any other aspect of conservatism if it hinders their push for that one particular facet. There is definitely a strong and large contingent that do.

    My issue is the false and incorrect presentation that to be socially conservative one MUST be that way, or that social conservativism inherently requires on to push for bigger government, both of which is just unquestionably untrue. Which is why I find it funny that you continually, wrongfully, suggest I'm lying (perhaps you don't understand what that word actually means. Let me google that for you) simply because I'm disagreeing with your assertion where as you continually and repeatedly attempt to imply that somehow to be socially conservative one MUST be in favor of big government and authoratarian even though its absolutely clear there is no such requirement.

    Yes, many Social Conservatives who care ONLY about social conservatism and don't hold strongly to other conservative views do indeed embrace big government AND social conservatism. However, that doesn't change the fact it is 100% possible to both embrace social conservatism and not embrace big goverment. That's just a simple, unquestionable, undeniable, fact.

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    Anything else?
    That it's not an oxymoron?

    The only reality being twisted is that I am somehow denying that a significant amount of social conservatives are fine with government encouraging or enforcing various levels of moral conduct.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Unfortunately for you, what Zyphlin has said is not a sack of lies, but rather a nuanced approach to looking at social conservatism's relationship with the rest of conservatism (which struck me as the main issue with your post). Further, it was also whether or not one's big government social conservatism prevented one from being thought of as conservative, and so on. His only fault was that he was more patient than I in elaborating for someone who clearly does not want to temper his previous assertions.
    You've disagreed with him, therefore you must be lying, and he will of course duly note it I'm sure.

    Perhaps I should've followed your lead. There's few on the board that I've seen more skillfully and intelligently gave their view, reasoning, and thought regarding a particular branch of conservatism (neocons) as you and its clear you've long had a strong grasp of the nuances of the ideology so his dismissal of you early on should've been enough evidence.

    The very nature of these "aberrations" shows his attempted implication that somehow being a social conservative makes one in favor of big government and authoritarianism to be incorrect. He complains about a "personal anecdote" while pointing to a SINGULAR posters statement as somehow PROOF of Social Conservativism being authoritarian as a whoel. Even the whole notio nof an "aberration" is noting but a baseless guess by him, using nothing at all other than his own anecdotal evidence (the type of evidence he mocked others for having and yet seems to act as if it is unquestionable truth when it comes from him) to suggest they truly are an aberration rather than simply a sizable and significant minority and possibly even just a vocal minority within the larger picture of "Conservatism" as a whole.

    I would absolutely state that I think its likely that a large portion of those who hold social conservative views, and a vast majority of those who don't care about any other portion of conservatism other than the social side, also have very weak to non-existant views regarding governmental conservatism. But I think its ridiculous to suggest that somehow it is impossible, or even impluasible, for someone to hold both social conservative and governmental conservative views and adhere to both.

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    That it's not an oxymoron?
    "Anything else" is not an oxymoron. If you don't understand a word, then use a dictionary.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/oxymoron

    The only reality being twisted is that I am somehow denying that a significant amount of social conservatives are fine with government encouraging or enforcing various levels of moral conduct.
    Who said you are denying this? This is what social conservatism is all about - using the the government to encourage and enforce various levels of moral conduct.

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You've disagreed with him, therefore you must be lying, and he will of course duly note it I'm sure.
    Yawn...You are the one who set the tone of this conservation by calling me ignorant since you disagreed with me. Then you turn around and pull this stunt.

    Seriously, there is no point in having a conversation with you.

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    Who said you are denying this? This is what social conservatism is all about - using the the government to encourage and enforce various levels of moral conduct.
    Incorrect. Social conservatism is a set of beliefs regarding morals, traditions, and societal standards. How one wishes to push, encourage, impliment, or adopt those morals, traditions, and standards is more based off their view of how the government should function in relation to the individual and society than it is about the social conservative views.

    "Social Conservatives" as a monolithic entity rather than an actual political ideology would fit what you're saying, as by and large it is in favor of enforce thos socially conservative views onto people through government involvement.

    "social conservatism" as an ideological subset of the larger ideology "conservatism" does not require, nor necessarily automatically lend itself, to implimenting those things upon people through the government.

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    Yawn...You are the one who set the tone of this conservation by calling me ignorant since you disagreed with me. Then you turn around and pull this stunt.
    Actually I suggested you must be ignorant regarding the ideology of "Conservatism" if you believe or choose to imply that to be socially conservative one must be authoritarian, one must believe in using the government to enforce those views, or that such a thing is an oxy moron in and of itself. I stand by that, you have an extremely twisted and warped understanding of what conservatism is that is built less off facts or any kind of objective study and far more off of hyperbole, stereotype, and emotional hyper partisan rhetoric. Your position is absolutely ignorant, IE lacking of knowledge, of conservatism as an ideology.

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