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Thread: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by conservativeguy View Post
    RINO's liked the Big Tent theory, not conservatives.
    No, the GOP liked the Big Tent nature of the party. Limbaugh used to brag about it. Conservatives (of whom there are very few actual ones left) reveled in it because of the competition for ideas and platform it brought.
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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    Then tell me how using the government to curb gay marriage
    One can be socially conservative and support gay marriage. Indeed, I'm one such person.

    curb gays from openly serving in the military
    Considering the military is unquestionably a government entity and one that all but the most extreme of extreme ends of conservativism (So extreme that it isn't even really correct to use it in reference to the commonly used term "conservatism") agrees as a government duty. As such, being in favor of the military possibly doing something within its own body is not necessarily hypocritical to other portions of conservatism in and of itself.

    using government to force pregnancies
    Again, this depends fully on ones world view and particular belief regarding the opinion of whether or not legally children in the womb should be given full rights or not. If you believe the former should be the case, then its fully within the realm of conservatism and even governmental conservatism to be in favor of removing legalized abortion. Another commonly held conservative belief regarding the propre role of government is the protection of the rights of those who are unable to protect themselves, which children fall into. As such, this isn't about "forcing pregnancies" but rather protecting individual rights. For it to be hypocritical on their part the individuals would need to be against the state going in and removing a 5 year old from a house where the parent has stated an intent to murder them. You won't find many conservatives of any stripe being against that.

    using the government to instill morality through a failed war on drugs
    This is absolutely an example where social conservatism was allowed to trump governmental conservatism. There's no real good way I've seen to justify the war on drugs to the extent its currently at in a way that satisfies by social and governmental conservatism.

    using the government to promote religion
    In some cases, yes. In some cases, no. In cases where the government is enforcing religious views upon someone, absolutely. In cases where the government is keeping people from being able to stifle the religious views of others, then no.

    using the government to export Western values at the barrel of a gun
    Again, an intricate issue that involves numerous other portions of conservatism as well. Not an automatically oxymoronic notion in regards to conservatisms principles by and large.

    Even a social conservative on this board was noble enough to admit that he subscribes to an authoritative platform.
    Yes, one particular conservative. Because some social conservatism can be done in an authoritative way. Just as some liberalism can be. We've seen liberals suggesting all firearms should be confiscated...does that show that ALL liberals are in favor of confiscating firearms? Or is it the views of an isolated individual rather than an ideology?

    To be perfectly honest you just seem immensely ignorant of what conservatism is and instead base your thought processes on stereotypes, hyperbole, overblown rhetoric, and hyper partisanship rather than any actual significant intellectually honest knowledge of analysis of conservative ideologies.

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Yes, one particular conservative. Because some social conservatism can be done in an authoritative way. Just as some liberalism can be. We've seen liberals suggesting all firearms should be confiscated...does that show that ALL liberals are in favor of confiscating firearms? Or is it the views of an isolated individual rather than an ideology?
    Thank you Zyphlin. It's refreshing to see someone that doesn't adhere to faux political science political spectrums to create "you bad I good" talking points.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    There is some confusion happening here. I am talking about social conservatism, not Goldwater conservatism, not paleo-conservatism, not neo-conservatism, not movement conservatism, not RINO's, etc.
    Paleo-conservatives are social conservatives. Neo-conservatives are social conservatives.

    One can be a social conservative without being only socially conservative. If your intention was to speak of those who are singularly and only social conservative you did a piss poor job of intimating that in any way, especially when you were speaking about it in such broad and wide ranging terms. For example you asked "are social conservatives not conservatives" a question seemingly to imply the two should be one in the same or part of one enough, not the seperate entities you speak of now.

    If we're to take your meaning to be talking about not just someone who is socially conservative but someone who is ONLY socially conservative, then yes they are a conservative when it comes to their VIEWS on social issues. They are not very conservative when it comes to their methods of acting upon said views. Social Conservatives in the way you define it, which seems to be only conservative on social issues but is massively in favor of big government, would more accurately be termed as centrist then singularly "conservative" or "liberal". They share conservatives views regarding social issues as to what's best for society while sharing the liberal view that government is a tool that is best used to impliment things to improve society.

    Yes, Social Conservatives as you define them could identify as "conservative" as their biggest ideological focus falls in line with conservatism. However, that does not indicate that every facet of their specific ideology is conservative.

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Thank you Zyphlin. It's refreshing to see someone that doesn't adhere to faux political science political spectrums to create "you bad I good" talking points.
    The flat basic "conservative or liberal" terminology is understandable in a large sense but fails miserably when you start looking deeply at it. Not to mention that the two aren't even so much a line as they are a large circle where you can go so far to one end or the other that you end up wrapping back around.

    Is a guy whose against gun control, pro-life, for same sex marriage, for lower taxes across the board, for removing regulations on business, but believes in global warming a conservative? A liberal? Does how important an individual issue is to them matter? IE if he's not really that passionate about taxes at all but kind of thinks they should be low, but is super duper staunch Pro-Gay marriage does that affect his designation more than if he was equally as passionate about both those issues?

    Even looking at a singular ideology there's a lot of variations. There's numerous ways for the various pillars of conservatism to step on the foot of another one, which is why we have so many variations of conservatives. Neo, Paleo, Libertarian, Authoritarian, Moderate, Populist, Hawkish, The Religious Right, and on and on and on.

    Generally for me I think its the sum of ones views, both in terms of quantity and intensity, that largely places where I view that individual in terms of the more static liberal/conservative line of things.

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    One can be socially conservative and support gay marriage. Indeed, I'm one such person.
    Would I be correct in assuming that you support gay marriage because America isn't a theocracy, but still view homosexuality as a sin?

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, the GOP liked the Big Tent nature of the party. Limbaugh used to brag about it. Conservatives (of whom there are very few actual ones left) reveled in it because of the competition for ideas and platform it brought.
    Yep. I remember talking with someone once during college about the difference a bit with the Democrats and Republicans.

    The Democrats by and large are made up of various pieces that each tend to have a specific policy issue or cause that is important to them. Environment, Abortion, Gay Rights, Welfare, Corporate Regulation, Health Care, War, etc. That individuals within the Democratic party tends to be more focused to a particular issue and may or may not have any real strong care about the other ones.

    On the flip side, the Republicans are made up of various pieces that each tend to fit within a different segment of the over all ideology. While there are some single issue republican voters, by and large the different pieces tend to have strong and similar views on a wide range of things based on the small ideological segments. The Religious Right, the Libertarians, the Paleoconservatives, etc.

    With Democrats the bond between them all is weaker because its not so much a broad ideological joining, but on the flip side its easier to bring them together because the individual issues have little care either way with the other issues and thus don't mind joining up for the common good of both of them.

    With Republicans the bond between them is stronger as there's an overall ideological bond that's greater, but on the flip side of that its harder to bring the various pieces together because each tend to have a very strong view point regarding the other various pieces of their ideology.

    The GOP NEEDS the Big Tent. I think it'll have issues and continue to have issues as long as it continues to simply ignore any particular pillar of conservatism. I've been saying for some time, the best thing for the long term health of the GOP would be to put together and actually execute a BALANCED conservative agenda. By doing so they would do things that would bother every different group in the big tent, but would provide for enough things that satisfies hte largest desires of all the various groups that it proves to be the better alternative out of the two major parties. Unfortunately, that approach has not been used significantly by them for some time.

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Would I be correct in assuming that you support gay marriage because America isn't a theocracy, but still view homosexuality as a sin?
    Actually I support gay marriage because I believe that its a violation of the constitution due to the Equal Protection Clause, and I'm in favor of adhering to the constitution. My overall preference varies between removing marriage all together and changing it entirely to "civil unions" between any two individuals able to enter into a legal agreement.

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    One can be socially conservative and support gay marriage. Indeed, I'm one such person.
    Then you are an aberration since most social conservatives do not support gay marriage. In fact, they tried to amend the Constitution to ban gay marriage. WTF is this personal anecdote all about? It is a flat out lie to disguise the idea that social conservatives are big government conservatives who like to use the government to instill their own brand of morality onto the masses.

    Your lies are clear as day. I am not going to sit here and listen to you spew lies about how social conservatives are defenders of gay marriage. This is absolutely ****ing ludicrous and makes me question what reality you live in.

    To be perfectly honest you just seem immensely ignorant of what conservatism is and instead base your thought processes on stereotypes, hyperbole, overblown rhetoric, and hyper partisanship rather than any actual significant intellectually honest knowledge of analysis of conservative ideologies.
    To be perfectly honest, I have no desire to carry on this conservation with you and dissect your plethora of misinformation. Your ignorance and hypocrisy is most evident.
    Last edited by Antiderivative; 10-25-11 at 05:47 PM.

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    Re: 27% Say They’re Conservative On Both Fiscal and Social Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    In fact, they tried to amend the Constitution to ban gay marriage.
    Some, SOME tried to amend the consistution to ban gay marriage. You have no factual evidence what so ever that everyone, or even a significantly large majority, of individuals who consider themselves socially conservative were in favor of banning gay marriage. Not to mention that the entire notion has to a point become distorted due to the demonization of the term in and of itself to somehow equate "socially conservative" to "Religious Right, enforce social views on people through government" as if they're synonyms.

    Your lies are clear as day. I am not going to sit here and listen to you spew lies about how social conservatives are defenders of gay marriage. This is absolutely ****ing ludicrous and makes me question what reality you live in.
    The irony of you talking about someone spewing lies.

    Yes, some social conservatives and the majority of the Religious Right are for big government. However, you're the one whose "spewing" things by implying repeatedly that somehow that being socially conservative requires one to also support authoritarian enforcement of said social views, which is just patentedly false.

    Its 100%, completely possible to be Socially Conservative and in favor of Small Government, including in regards to social issues. Your implications to the otherwise are the statements that are running against the truth, not mine. Ron Paul is actually a rather clear example of someone who is both Socially Consrevative and Governmentally Conservative.

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