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Thread: Checking Herman Cain's math on 9-9-9

  1. #11
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    Re: Checking Herman Cain's math on 9-9-9

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    What makes you think that firms will actually face a drop in costs? The 9% "business tax" is a VAT tax, which is essentially another 9% tax on income. It works very differently from the current corporate tax, which taxes profits.
    No it's not. It's a 9% tax on gross income less the cost of goods bought from other U.S. companies, exports, and capital investments.

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    Re: Checking Herman Cain's math on 9-9-9

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    very, very funny.
    very, very thoughtful post.... typical for you.

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    Re: Checking Herman Cain's math on 9-9-9

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    No it's not. It's a 9% tax on gross income less the cost of goods bought from other U.S. companies, exports, and capital investments.
    Which is essentially what I just said...effectively, it acts as an additional retail sales tax.

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    Re: Checking Herman Cain's math on 9-9-9

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Which is essentially what I just said...effectively, it acts as an additional retail sales tax.
    It's a simple 9% corporate tax to replace the current corporate tax.

    The 9% federal sales tax is what it says, but that is vastly different than a VAT tax.

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    Re: Checking Herman Cain's math on 9-9-9

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    What kind of evidence would you like to see ???

    Typically when the cost of producing a product/service drops, competitive pressure lowers prices.
    How about some examples of this actually happening? If it's so typical, then this shouldn't be hard. I contend that when corporate taxes are lowered, the profiteers of those corporations simply pocket the difference. I know this because the examples that you're going to scurry off and look for won't be nearly as typical as you claim. They will be a rarity. Prices, in terms of general trend, only go up.
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    Re: Checking Herman Cain's math on 9-9-9

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    How about some examples of this actually happening? If it's so typical, then this shouldn't be hard. I contend that when corporate taxes are lowered, the profiteers of those corporations simply pocket the difference. I know this because the examples that you're going to scurry off and look for won't be nearly as typical as you claim. They will be a rarity. Prices, in terms of general trend, only go up.
    oil and digital equipment are two examples I can think of off the top of my head.

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    Re: Checking Herman Cain's math on 9-9-9

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    It's a simple 9% corporate tax to replace the current corporate tax.
    From which it is DRASTICALLY different.

    The 9% federal sales tax is what it says, but that is vastly different than a VAT tax.
    I'm saying the 9% "business transaction tax" is, IN EFFECT (in other words, it is for all intents and purposes almost the same as a VAT tax.) Basically the entire plan is a 27% tax on wages/income or sales, depending on how you look at it. The business tax, the personal income tax, and the sales tax all essentially amount to a 27% tax on total income.

    http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxto...9-9-9-plan.cfm

    The bases of all three taxes are essentially the same as the base of a national sales tax.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 10-19-11 at 06:55 PM.

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    Re: Checking Herman Cain's math on 9-9-9

    I like Cain.


    I'd like to vote for him.


    I'm not sure I will, and the 999 plan is the reason.

    I'd need to see the raw math, rather than just someone's assurances, that this is ultimately going to benefit everyone in the country.

    I think believing that prices will go down is hard to prove... but I do know for SURE that the final price on everything will go up 9%, because that's the Fed sales tax he's proposing.

    9% straight income tax.... will this also negate all loopholes, exemptions and credits? What about things like child tax credits, EIC and so on? If all those are eliminated the effect of this change on the working-poor could be FAR greater than merely 9% off your take-home pay. If child-credits and EIC are eliminated, along with adding 9% tax for everyone regardless of income, the effect could push working-poor heads underwater.

    9% corporate tax... okay this may help the economy since businesses will have more money to use... but they have money right NOW that they're holding onto instead of investing in growth, because of fears and uncertainties about the economy. Are there any studies saying this will actually have a positive impact on job creation and salaries?

    I'd need to know more before I could support such a radical restructuring of our tax system. At this point, 9-9-9 is practically a dealbreaker for me, regards to voting for Cain.
    Last edited by Goshin; 10-19-11 at 07:02 PM.

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    Re: Checking Herman Cain's math on 9-9-9

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Cain has a degree in mathematics and a Masters in computer science, so sounds like he did just fine in math class.

    What most critics of Cain's plan forget to take into account is the lower prices for goods and services that will result. Businesses will have lower corporate taxes and will pay almost 8% less for employee salaries. Presumably, the lower costs will be passed through to consumers.

    While I'm not convinced that Cain's plan is the way to go, Politifact is not being accurate, which is not unusual for them.
    That's ridiculous. His plan is ridiculous and that is why he cannot provide a reasonable answer as to how it would actually work and how it would not result in a tax increase.

    Currently, businesses pay corporate income taxes on net profits. What Cain is proposing with his 9-9-9 plan is that they would pay taxes on gross revenue and only be able to deduct charitable contributions and capital investments - but then only if those purchases are made in the United States which would be an illegal tariff. The fact that businesses would no longer be able to deduct their single largest expense from their tax liabilities (employee compensation) would probably put better than half the companies in existence out of business. Sure, they pay payroll taxes now, but that is a part of your compensation, not a tax against their entire gross revenues. Moreover, being able to deduct capital investments made in the United States is automatically cancelled out by the fact that every one of those investments and outside services the companies would purchase would be subject to his 9% consumption tax. So the notion they would reduce the costs for their goods and services as a result of the 9-9-9 plan is absurd, they would have to increase costs to make up for the fact that they would now be the only companies on earth subject to taxes on gross revenues. Which is another problem with the plan. United States companies would be subject to a 9% tax on their gross revenues while none of their global competitors would be subject to the same tax.

    It says something when you propose a tax plan and not a single one of the other Republican Candidates thinks its even workable, much less a decent idea. Normally, Republican Primary candidates attack each others tax plans as not going far enough. In this case, they are attacking 9-9-9 as a plan that ridiculousness, would raise taxes on on the middle class and the poor, and would cripple businesses.

    Basically, what Cain is proposing would a mount to a crippling tax on the poor and working poor, a tax increase on the middle class and upper middle class, and a business killer. Hell it would even tax state and local governments with his 9% consumption tax.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 10-19-11 at 07:10 PM.
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    Re: Checking Herman Cain's math on 9-9-9

    I cannot support this tax plan. I just see it hurting too many people.

    For me, I would end up paying less by my back of the envelope calculations, which would be nice I guess, but I cannot get over the fact that it would hurt others to my benefit and this makes me feel guilty.

    I think ultimately, this could work if the necessities of life were exempted, such as grocery store food (especially nonprocessed foods, for the added national health benefit), basic clothing, shelter and medical expenses. Then I wouldn't see it as harmful.

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