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Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Owes Taxes Going Back To 2002 [edited]

iliveonramen said:
That's a good point. Is he saying this for posterity? Carnegie would say the same sort of things then his right hand man would break heads during labor strikes. It's possible. I'd like to think there are decent people out there instead of always having an ulterior motive.
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I believe he means it. It is a factual point. I'm just not so sure that he would speak out for it if he thought it would actually happen.

I agree with this but frankly there's decades of BS floating around to dispel. I always feel that when times are good, people don't really care about politics (in general). When times are bad, like now, is when people start asking questions and expect answers.
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Yep.
 
1Perry said:
I don't recall the lie about his taxes.
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Its been posted twice in this thread, but read the AP, MSNBC, HuPo, or any other liberal leaning site and they will all put lie to his claim that he or any rich person pays less than his secretary in either overall taxes or percentages. Buffet dissembled...he told a lie. He pays less than his secretary on his WAGES. His investment income, corporate taxes and hedge fund income is all counted and taxed differently. 'I' pay more than Buffet on my 'wages' because I make more than he does in wage salary. He however makes at least 6.2 million times more than I make in wages in investment income, on which he pays considerably more (except where he hires teams of accountants, all who make considerably more than me I sure) to find loopholes so he doesnt have to pay those taxes that he states he 'should' have to pay...theres the lie, and theres the hypocrisy.
 
VanceMack said:
Its been posted twice in this thread, but read the AP, MSNBC, HuPo, or any other liberal leaning site and they will all put lie to his claim that he or any rich person pays less than his secretary in either overall taxes or percentages. Buffet dissembled...he told a lie. He pays less than his secretary on his WAGES. His investment income, corporate taxes and hedge fund income is all counted and taxed differently. 'I' pay more than Buffet on my 'wages' because I make more than he does in wage salary. He however makes at least 6.2 million times more than I make in wages in investment income, on which he pays considerably more (except where he hires teams of accountants, all who make considerably more than me I sure) to find loopholes so he doesnt have to pay those taxes that he states he 'should' have to pay...theres the lie, and theres the hypocrisy.
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Buffett made a generalized statement, not a position paper. He had a basic point that because most of his income is Captial Gains, it's taxed at a lower rate than the income his secretary makes.

If you want to break that arguement down into exacts, you can argue that he wasn't completely precise but he was not trying to be.
 
iliveonramen said:
I don't see why the two can't be separate issues.

Are corporations structurally greedy and hold maximization of shareholder wealth as their top priority? Of course. Does that make them bad people? I would argue no, people with my leaning may disagree.

When his own wealth which he is solely responsible for is in question, he's already donating vritually everything to charity on his death and is willing to pay much higher taxes.

Don't get me wrong, I see why the right wants to smear his character. The guy is a brilliant capitalist, the JP Morgan of generation. The guy lives according to real conservative values, he's not flashy, has the same house since the 70's drives the same car for over a decade. Invests based on real conservative fundamentals. If he wasn't saying this people would point to him as WHY America is great. When his views fly in the face of conservative ideology you want to silence him or ignore his point.
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This is simply not true. The problem I have is his convenient use of 'facts' (when pretty much anyone else cherry picks 'facts' to prove a point we call them LIARS) and his blatant hypocisy. If he BELIEVES what he is saying then he should be DOING it. He CAN be doing it. He ISNT doing it. That old line about integrity meaning you do the 'right' thing ALL the time...not just when someone is watching, when you are forced to, or when you get caught comes into play.
 
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1Perry said:
Buffett made a generalized statement, not a position paper. He had a basic point that because most of his income is Captial Gains, it's taxed at a lower rate than the income his secretary makes.

If you want to break that arguement down into exacts, you can argue that he wasn't completely precise but he was not trying to be.
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You can argue that...especially when you are defending his position because you agree with it. His generalized statement is a lie. He does not pay less than his secretary in amount or percentage of his total accumulated income. He used a small piece of HIS income to compare to her total income and made a false statement...on which the 'Buffet Rule' has been built. Convenient.
 
VanceMack said:
If he BELIEVES what he is saying then he should be DOING it.
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It's called competition. It is how capitalism works. You don't give up a competitive edge unless everyone loses the edge.

How stupid would it be for a company to try to be the only one to do the right thing if it meant the company would go bankrupt and other companies that were not doing the right thing stepped up and took its spot in the market? In order for a company to do the right thing, sometimes it has to do wrong thing until the system can be changed and everyone is required to do the right thing. That is one of the cold realities of a capitalistic market. It doesn't reward doing the right thing.
 
CriticalThought said:
It's called competition. It is how capitalism works. You don't give up a competitive edge unless everyone loses the edge.

How stupid would it be for a company to try to be the only one to do the right thing if it meant the company would go bankrupt and other companies that were not doing the right thing stepped up and took its spot in the market? In order for a company to do the right thing, sometimes it has to do wrong thing until the system can be changed and everyone is required to do the right thing. That is one of the cold realities of a capitalistic market. It doesn't reward doing the right thing.
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Wait...you are saying doing what Warren Buffet says is the 'right thing' would bankrupt the company? Why...then by golly we should be RUSHING to embrace his plan shouldnt we? :lamo
 
VanceMack said:
This is simply not true. The problem I have is his convenient use of 'facts' (when pretty much anyone else cherry picks 'facts' to prove a point we call them LIARS) and his blatant hypocisy. If he BELIEVES what he is saying then he should be DOING it. He CAN be doing it. He ISNT doing it. That old line about integrity meaning you do the 'right' thing ALL the time...not just when someone is watching, when you are forced to, or when you get caught comes into play.
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What in regards to his own tax rates or his company? I've explained my views on his company. As far as his compensation...he's received compansation in it's present form since the 70's when it was taxed heavily. He's always wanted his personal wealth to be based on the value added to his shareholders...he did it before it was cool.

Your argument is wrong because his point is that "elites" and wealthy in this country owe this country. He spoke out against a policy he disagrees with. Conservatives are grasping at straws and trying to discredit the man. Does hypocrisy matter? Yes. Does that fact that he doesn't change his whole mode of compensation that he instituted based on his principles make him a hypocrite? No. Does writing a check to the Treasury above the amount he owe change policy he disagrees with? No. You guys just want him to shut up, plain and simple.
 
Proud South Korean said:
What if those interests conflict?
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I don't think they conflict. He's mentioned the fact he thinks personal capital gains taxes should be higher. That the individuals should pay more in taxes if they are wealthy.

As a CEO he's worried about corporate profits and getting a return to investors.
 
VanceMack said:
Wait...you are saying doing what Warren Buffet says is the 'right thing' would bankrupt the company? Why...then by golly we should be RUSHING to embrace his plan shouldnt we? :lamo
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Sigh...

Yes, sometimes the right thing would bankrupt a company, or allow it to be taken over by other companies. For example, if everyone sold toys made by child slave labor and I tried to suddenly start selling toys that were not made by child slave labor but cost 5 times as much, then I would probably go bankrupt or my company would be taken over by a company that did use child slave labor. Before I could stop selling toys made by child slave labor, I would have get laws passed so that nobody could sell toys made by child slave labor so that competitive advantage no longer existed for anyone.
 
VanceMack said:
You can argue that...especially when you are defending his position because you agree with it.
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What is there to disagree with? CG are taxed lower than regular income.

His generalized statement is a lie. He does not pay less than his secretary in amount or percentage of his total accumulated income. He used a small piece of HIS income to compare to her total income and made a false statement...on which the 'Buffet Rule' has been built. Convenient.
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Buffett has said that the Buffett Rule is NOT his position and he does not support it.
 
iliveonramen said:
What in regards to his own tax rates or his company? I've explained my views on his company. As far as his compensation...he's received compansation in it's present form since the 70's when it was taxed heavily. He's always wanted his personal wealth to be based on the value added to his shareholders...he did it before it was cool.

Your argument is wrong because his point is that "elites" and wealthy in this country owe this country. He spoke out against a policy he disagrees with. Conservatives are grasping at straws and trying to discredit the man. Does hypocrisy matter? Yes. Does that fact that he doesn't change his whole mode of compensation that he instituted based on his principles make him a hypocrite? No. Does writing a check to the Treasury above the amount he owe change policy he disagrees with? No. You guys just want him to shut up, plain and simple.
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He can fight for policy change all he wants. If HE says he believes what HE is doing is wrong then HE shouldnt need the government to FORCE him to do the right thing. You defend it because you want the rich to be taxed more. Doesnt make him NOT a hypocrite.
 
VanceMack said:
Wait...you are saying doing what Warren Buffet says is the 'right thing' would bankrupt the company? Why...then by golly we should be RUSHING to embrace his plan shouldnt we? :lamo
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Sigh...

Yes, sometimes the right thing would bankrupt a company, or allow it to be taken over by other companies. For example, if everyone sold toys made by child slave labor and I tried to suddenly start selling toys that were not made by child slave labor but cost 5 times as much, then I would probably go bankrupt or my company would be taken over by a company that did use child slave labor. Before I could stop selling toys made by child slave labor, I would have get laws passed so that nobody could sell toys made by child slave labor so that competitive advantage no longer existed for anyone.
 
CriticalThought said:
Sigh...

Yes, sometimes the right thing would bankrupt a company, or allow it to be taken over by other companies. For example, if everyone sold toys made by child slave labor and I tried to suddenly start selling toys that were not made by child slave labor but cost 5 times as much, then I would probably go bankrupt or my company would be taken over by a company that did use child slave labor. Before I could stop selling toys made by child slave labor, I would have get laws passed so that nobody could sell toys made by child slave labor so that competitive advantage no longer existed for anyone.
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You left off one of your tap dancing shoes...its just making an ugly racket...you should just stop and say..."huh...OK...that didnt sound very smart...you are right. OK...THIS is what I mean..."

Buffet isnt claiming he would be bankrupt, nor would his company be bankrupt. He is stating he can EASILY afford to be taxed more and SHOULD be taxed more..and if that is what he truly believes then he should already be LIVING it. Otherwise and definitely...he is a hypocrite. More so because he could so easily afford what he claims he believes.
 
VanceMack said:
He can fight for policy change all he wants. If HE says he believes what HE is doing is wrong then HE shouldnt need the government to FORCE him to do the right thing. You defend it because you want the rich to be taxed more. Doesnt make him NOT a hypocrite.
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Of course I defend him because I think the rich should pay more in taxes. You're attacking him because you don't think the rich should pay taxes.

I wish you had this argument when Bush and Co. and conservatives were pushing for war in Iraq. "If you want war in Iraq, take a gun and go over there". Accomplishes nothing but apparently is the only way to meet your level of purity in order to have a view on public policy.
 
VanceMack said:
You left off one of your tap dancing shoes...its just making an ugly racket...you should just stop and say..."huh...OK...that didnt sound very smart...you are right. OK...THIS is what I mean..."

Buffet isnt claiming he would be bankrupt, nor would his company be bankrupt. He is stating he can EASILY afford to be taxed more and SHOULD be taxed more..and if that is what he truly believes then he should already be LIVING it. Otherwise and definitely...he is a hypocrite. More so because he could so easily afford what he claims he believes.
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I agree he isn't communicating his message in a good way, but the reality is he sees the current system as wrong, and he wants to do right, but there are a lot of people, not necessarily him, who would be put at a terrible disadvantage if they simply ponied up more taxes even though they may feel it is the right thing to do. Everyone needs to be held to the same standard so as to neutralize the competitive advantage.
 
VanceMack said:
..and if that is what he truly believes then he should already be LIVING it. Otherwise and definitely...he is a hypocrite. More so because he could so easily afford what he claims he believes.
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This. Words are meaningless. Actions are everything. Saying, "It should be different, but I'm going to take advantage of every legal opportunity to pay less taxes until it changes," is what he should have said. Because that's what he's living. What's legal and what's ethical are two very different kettles.
 
MaggieD said:
This. Words are meaningless. Actions are everything. Saying, "It should be different, but I'm going to take advantage of every legal opportunity to pay less taxes until it changes," is what he should have said. Because that's what he's living. What's legal and what's ethical are two very different kettles.
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Or maybe he is saying, "Look what I can do America, is this fair?"

Do you really want to make this into an argument of ethics? During a time when many CEOs and corporations are paying less taxes than me or you? Really?
 
CriticalThought said:
I agree he isn't communicating his message in a good way, but the reality is he sees the current system as wrong, and he wants to do right, but there are a lot of people, not necessarily him, who would be put at a terrible disadvantage if they simply ponied up more taxes even though they may feel it is the right thing to do. Everyone needs to be held to the same standard so as to neutralize the competitive advantage.
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And Im FINE with an honest disagreement about taxes. I have said on this site NUMEROUS times that if I was president or king I would ABSOLUTELY tax the rich at a higher rate to pay down the debt in a guaranteed and structured manner and ensure that once the debt was paid down the tax increases would be eliminated permanently. Not because it is the 'right' thing to do or because it is 'fair' but because without paying down the debt and reducing federal spending an individuals wealth is going to be irrelevant. When the country is bankrupt none of this will matter.

None of that changes the reality that Buffet is selectively lying about his taxes as compared to his secretary or that he can very easily do what he claims is 'right'. He is a hypocrite simply ebcause even though he CAN do what he claims is right he DOESNT.
 
VanceMack said:
He is a hypocrite simply ebcause even though he CAN do what he claims is right he DOESNT.
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His behavior conforms perfectly with his moral stance.

He believes that the law should change so that corporations are paying a fair tax rate.

Nothing in that moral stance obligates him to pay a fair tax rate if not anybody else is doing it.
 
CriticalThought said:
His behavior conforms perfectly with his moral stance.

He believes that the law should change so that corporations are paying a fair tax rate.

Nothing in that moral stance obligates him to pay a fair tax rate if not anybody else is doing it.
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right...he is a hypocrite.
 
VanceMack said:
right...he is a hypocrite.
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You don't seem to understand his moral stance, so of course, you wouldn't understand why his behavior is in accordance with it.

There is nothing moral about him selflessly giving the government more money simply because he can.

His moral stance is that there should be a fair tax policy on the wealthiest Americans.

As it stands now, the government is virtually subsidizing these men with these loopholes that they take advantage of and Buffet is suggesting this needs to be corrected.

There is nothing wrong with him taking advantage of those subsidies from his moral perspective. He isn't saying that people shouldn't take advantage of them if they exist, he is saying they should not exist.
 
CriticalThought said:
You don't seem to understand his moral stance, so of course, you wouldn't understand why his behavior is in accordance with it.

There is nothing moral about him selflessly giving the government more money simply because he can.

His moral stance is that there should be a fair tax policy on the wealthiest Americans.

As it stands now, the government is virtually subsidizing these men with these loopholes that they take advantage of and Buffet is suggesting this needs to be corrected.

There is nothing wrong with him taking advantage of those subsidies from his moral perspective. He isn't saying that people shouldn't take advantage of them if they exist, he is saying they should not exist.
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Dood...this just isnt even a question. If a preacher or politician spoke out against homosexuality and/or pornography, all the while engaging in homosexual acts and usiong pornography you are the FIRST person on this board that would trip over themselves to call him out, regardless of the legality of the acts. You know it, so do I. defending his hypocrisy is goofy at best, self serving and dishonest at least.
 
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CriticalThought said:
You don't seem to understand his moral stance, so of course, you wouldn't understand why his behavior is in accordance with it.

There is nothing moral about him selflessly giving the government more money simply because he can.

His moral stance is that there should be a fair tax policy on the wealthiest Americans.

As it stands now, the government is virtually subsidizing these men with these loopholes that they take advantage of and Buffet is suggesting this needs to be corrected.

There is nothing wrong with him taking advantage of those subsidies from his moral perspective. He isn't saying that people shouldn't take advantage of them if they exist, he is saying they should not exist.
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There are no loopholes concerning his arguement. His arguement is simple. Capital Gains are taxed at a lower rate than regular income and that should be changed. That is not a loophole, it's policy. It's the way it's designed.
 
nonpareil said:
Not capital gain tax which is the object of the discussion.

You pay capital gain tax on the profit you make, you don't pay capital gain tax on any losses.




I'm being serious. You don't know, that's the point, unless you have the crystal ball, so stop speculating as if you do.




No you weren't. There was no "if" in your previous posts.
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Okay, I gave you way too much of my time last night. You don't want to do anything but defend Buffett so I'm done with you here. Seriously all you did was try to twist facts and play little games. If you can't admit Buffett is a hypocrite tax cheat then we're done here.
 
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