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Thread: Police beat war veterans in assault on Occupy Boston

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    Re: Police beat war veterans in assault on Occupy Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    Let me make myself clear. I don't think it's inappropriate to arrest people on misdemeanor charges if they're breaking the law and preventing others from going about their business. but I do think it's appropriate to tolerate or even assist the protesters as much as possible. As for running people down ... yeah, that would be murder.
    We will have to disagree on the amount of tolerance that should be shown to these SQUATTERS. It dawned on me a couple minutes ago that these people aren't Protestors, they're Squatters. If they're Protestors, what's their message? If they don't have a message then they're just derilicts and squatters and should be treated as such.

    I'd have no more issue running them down than I would a squirrell or chipmunk.

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    Re: Police beat war veterans in assault on Occupy Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    You know, I try to be an fairly even-handed guy, give people the benefit of the doubt and take them at their word. I can't believe the derision some conservatives are casting on these protesters: Scum, wastes of oxygen, filth, sleaze ...
    Sort of like what some liberals did concerning the Tea Party.

    You display precious little respect for your fellow Americans, and you act like children with your fingers in your ears. Do you think you're winning rational people to your cause?
    Did you ask this question of those who slammed the Tea Party?

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    Re: Police beat war veterans in assault on Occupy Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    No, that's completely incorrect. There's a law that states you cannot trample all over one specific area of land. Nobody was asked to stop assembling. Nobody was told they couldn't peacefully assemble. They were told, "Hey, this spot is off limits...please walk across the street (roads closed for your safety!) to the area that isn't restricted by previously existing laws." Something that the SCOTUS has said is perfectly acceptable. Much like a city can say that the public park closes at 10, so protests must vacate by 10 (but can return upon open the next morning!).
    You are correct as far as I can tell.

    However, bear in mind that abuses do occur.

    The whole, "ots illegal to sit down and hold an umbrella" bit in Washington was going too far.

    There's lots of places where structures are forbidden. Even a beach umbrella.

    It dickish to forbid in an area with regular heavy rainfall, but they wouldn't allow an EZUp on a sunny day/clear night either. (Assuming they aren't selectively enforcing)

    But calling out the wording of the law to ticket people for sitting down while holding an open umbrella is assinine.

    And from what I've seen, individual conduct notwithstanding, and subject to revision on further information, I have to give this one to the cops.

    If, as it appears, the protesters were instructed to stay off the fresh sod, to prevent costly damage (a legitimate concern if true), then did so anyway, then the cops were doing as instructed and the protesters got arrested.

    "Its a fair cop." in keeping with the Monty Python theme.

    I've worked a lot of events and actually served as a LE liason for the Rainbow Gatherings.

    Crowd control is complex and unpredictable. A little leeway on the side of LE is appropriate. Watching all the videos posted from the demonstrations show all the things I've seen before. Cops being dicks standing right next to cops comporting themselves respectfully. (Note this as you watch videos, polite, respectful cops get better compliance than rude, bullying cops. Check it out for yourself, its real clear in one of the videos I've seen posted here)

    And as a liason, LE would provide me with instructions regarding whatever the issue is and it became our responsibility to get everybody to comply. With that event it was usually something like a trail too close to a stream is damaging the bank so a crew would have to deal with it or traffic would have to be re-routed. One year they suited up in riot gear to move on a parking area, but we had enough warning and had so many people standing about awaiting instructions on how to comply that their operation failed miserably, leaving a whole lot of cops standing around in the hot sun in riot gear with no hippies to beat. Which they had clearly been eager to do at the beginning. It was pretty funny, actually.

    So lss, while I support the protests i also understand the problems being addressed by LE as well, so I'm sure its going to sound like I'm taking the ant-protesters side.

    I'm not, you're sure to see me speak when the cops or their bosses **** up too. I have already.
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    Re: Police beat war veterans in assault on Occupy Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    We will have to disagree on the amount of tolerance that should be shown to these SQUATTERS. It dawned on me a couple minutes ago that these people aren't Protestors, they're Squatters. If they're Protestors, what's their message? If they don't have a message then they're just derilicts and squatters and should be treated as such.

    I'd have no more issue running them down than I would a squirrell or chipmunk.
    I disagree with you. I find your attitude sociopathic. But I would never run you down in the street.

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    Re: Police beat war veterans in assault on Occupy Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Sort of like what some liberals did concerning the Tea Party.
    Indisputable.


    Did you ask this question of those who slammed the Tea Party?
    Not on this board, no. But my political sympathies are with the other side most of the time. I didn't attack them, either. The tea party rallies were legitimate demonstrations. That's worthy of respect, even if I disagree with the message.

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    Re: Police beat war veterans in assault on Occupy Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    You are correct as far as I can tell.

    However, bear in mind that abuses do occur.

    The whole, "ots illegal to sit down and hold an umbrella" bit in Washington was going too far.

    There's lots of places where structures are forbidden. Even a beach umbrella.

    It dickish to forbid in an area with regular heavy rainfall, but they wouldn't allow an EZUp on a sunny day/clear night either. (Assuming they aren't selectively enforcing)

    But calling out the wording of the law to ticket people for sitting down while holding an open umbrella is assinine.

    And from what I've seen, individual conduct notwithstanding, and subject to revision on further information, I have to give this one to the cops.

    If, as it appears, the protesters were instructed to stay off the fresh sod, to prevent costly damage (a legitimate concern if true), then did so anyway, then the cops were doing as instructed and the protesters got arrested.

    "Its a fair cop." in keeping with the Monty Python theme.

    I've worked a lot of events and actually served as a LE liason for the Rainbow Gatherings.

    Crowd control is complex and unpredictable. A little leeway on the side of LE is appropriate. Watching all the videos posted from the demonstrations show all the things I've seen before. Cops being dicks standing right next to cops comporting themselves respectfully. (Note this as you watch videos, polite, respectful cops get better compliance than rude, bullying cops. Check it out for yourself, its real clear in one of the videos I've seen posted here)

    And as a liason, LE would provide me with instructions regarding whatever the issue is and it became our responsibility to get everybody to comply. With that event it was usually something like a trail too close to a stream is damaging the bank so a crew would have to deal with it or traffic would have to be re-routed. One year they suited up in riot gear to move on a parking area, but we had enough warning and had so many people standing about awaiting instructions on how to comply that their operation failed miserably, leaving a whole lot of cops standing around in the hot sun in riot gear with no hippies to beat. Which they had clearly been eager to do at the beginning. It was pretty funny, actually.

    So lss, while I support the protests i also understand the problems being addressed by LE as well, so I'm sure its going to sound like I'm taking the ant-protesters side.

    I'm not, you're sure to see me speak when the cops or their bosses **** up too. I have already.
    I definitely understand that cops can get out of line. I'm not even saying that there was no behavior in this instance that wasn't out of line. From the articles I've found, though, it seems that "beating up veterans" may be an exaggeration of what actually happened (can't watch the video at the moment). The umbrella issue seems to me to have been an over-reach by the cops, but, again, I haven't looked much into that one. My only issue in this thread is the insistance that one right out of hundreds trumps every other right of every other person, and any legal obligation as well. There are limitations on everything we do, and for (usually) good reason. If a law exists and you violate it in the exercise of your rights you're still breaking the law...probably the simplest way I can make my point.

    I mean, if you rob a bank, you can't argue that you're simply in the process of pursuing happiness and expect to get out of trouble. If you block in cars at an abortion clinic you can't argue that you're exercising your free speech and expect to get out of trouble. So why should these people be able to argue that their right to assemble trumps their legal obligation not to destroy property that belongs to another (or the collective)?
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    Re: Police beat war veterans in assault on Occupy Boston

    Police will do their job no matter who is protesting, veteran, homeless person, nurse, it matters little. What matters is the breaking of the law, but for those who feel these protests have merit, you really don't care about the law anyway.

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    Re: Police beat war veterans in assault on Occupy Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    You are correct as far as I can tell.

    However, bear in mind that abuses do occur.
    I didn't post your entire thread because I do not have a problem with it. Yes, a little leeway should be given. I'm sure overall it is. Other times, not so. Get off the new sod though.

    It's not an unreasonable request.

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    Re: Police beat war veterans in assault on Occupy Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Sort of like what some liberals did concerning the Tea Party.
    You mean like pointing out that their messages were largely selfish, often racist, and quite frequently contradictory? That's an attack, right? Criticizing the violence of their messages, that's just being partisan. I think "selfish prick" was the worst thing I ever said about Tea Partiers.

    On the flip side, discussion of the OWS protesters seems largely to be about their hygiene and attire. People who don't know what socialism is call them socialists, but those same people call Obama a socialist, which is absurd. The OWS protests certainly have a coherent message, and it's centered around the huge gap between the middle and upper classes in this country. Unemployment soars, while corporate leaders line their own pockets, regardless of the economic, social, or environmental consequences for the rest of us. The system that allows this to happen is the target. The only real criticism I've seen leveled towards the OWS' actual message is "nuh uh, the recession isn't the fault of business practices that elevate greed and selfishness to saintly virtues, it's the democrats!"

    The criticism leveled at the two groups has hardly been equal.
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    Re: Police beat war veterans in assault on Occupy Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    the irony of reading the words of somebody on the right complain about "underpaid police officers" is sweet indeed.
    Call it underpaid or low pay, whatever. I think most LEO's are critically underpaid for the risks they take on our behalf. Would I cruise the inner city streets of ATL for the paltry salary our cops receive, hell no. We waste to much money on unimportant crap while starving the very folks we need to maintain public safety.

    Contrary to liberal dogma, not all conservatives despise every government function.
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