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Thread: Gm moves to China

  1. #121
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    Re: Gm moves to China

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    See, from my perspective, this is why I'm less bothered by GM outsourcing than I am with a company like Ford outsourcing. I have a vested interest in GM's bottom line (so that we might recoup our losses from the bailout), whereas I don't care a lick about Ford's bottom line. The only reaosn I would have bought a Ford before was to help American's keep jobs. A foreign-made ford is of no value to me. Whereas there is some value in a foreign-made Chevy due to the bailout.
    People most certainly have differing opinions on things.

    This doesn't make sense to me, though. they were already building cars in other countries when they got bailed out. They weren't expected to stop building cars in other countries, so why is China such a problem?
    People realize China moreso but not exclusively doesn't play fair when it comes to trade.

    I don't disagree that it was done out of desperation, but that doesn't make it any less different. I'm no fan of the unions (I actually have a strong distaste for them form my time running a non-union carpentry company), but I will give them credit when they make the right decision, even if they only did the right thing out of pure desperation.
    I don't despise unions like some. I admit that they do good some of the time. They just don't know when to stop asking for more and more.

    I'm of the belief that urging over-priced workers to retire was the right thing for them to do. Whether or not they **** things up again from here on out is a different story, but that action (which is nothing to shake a stick at) does indicate that they are approaching things somewhat differently than they have in the past.
    Over priced? I'd say unaffordable. Not that I really took your posts as a knock. But anyway......the unions realize that there is nothing they can do for these workers IMO. It's in their best interest to not have to deal with it. I won't dismiss your arguement out of hand. I can just see them asking for increases for the lower wage workers (which they did and got) and not wanting to have to deal with the higher paid workers wanting to know where theirs is at.

    But the overall effect of outsourcing on the total number of jobs has not been negative so much as it has been neutral, because while we lose jobs that are outsourced, we gain different kinds of jobs.
    I hear this and I just don't buy it. How does no one making televisions in the U.S. create a job we wouldn't have otherwise?

    In another thread I saw your description of what your father has done (with his job at sears). To me, it looks like we actually have a similar view on this. While a person may lose their job in one field, a motivated person will find another job elsewhere, often in a completely unrelated field.
    Sure but he's not in the same position he was in before he put his years in and retired. Now, I've argued that indeed, these old jobs that I believe we could still do here will not pay the way they once did.

    Perhaps my view of things is in part due to the fact that I used to do very well for myself in the construction industry, which was not outsourced but it was practically eradicated in this recession due to the housing bubble. Instead of chasing after jobs that weren't there, I've completely altered my career course. I tightened my belt and took on a job that pays a fraction of what I used to make in order to set myself up for that future career. I was more willing to do this than other might be because I did not entertain the fantasy that I could pull an undo on reality. Even if I did manage to land another carpentry job, it would be at a fraction of what I used to make anyway, and my hold on that job would be tenuous regardless of my skill at the job (and I happen to be pretty good at it, if I do say so myself).
    All the props to you.

    So, to be frank, I realize that this does add a degree of bias to my assessments on how to move forward form bad situations. I firmly believe that if I did not have a practical approach to things I would be in far worse shape now than I am (I'm actually not in bad shape at all, even though I make a lot less than I used to).
    Obviously I've argued the same things. I still would based upon my current arguement. Someone manufacturing a television isn't going to get paid what a good carpenter was able to. It's better than unemployment though.

    Fair enough. I think it can be good either way, as long as it is profitable. I'm not convinced that cars made in China won't sell here, and I think that massive profits can be had in China simply due to the immense size of that market.
    Indeed. I'd like to see the unions sneak in this way also.
    True. I have misunderstood your intentions, then. We essentially differ on our assessment of how much of a future problem the possibility of Chinese-made GM's being sold in the US would be. I think that the bigger threat to GM's domestic sales comes from the opposition to buying from a company that got bailed out (which, I have to say, is totally inconsistent, seeing how many people who are averse to buying GM vehicles will still patronize banks that were bailed out that outsource.)
    Here is my problem. I DO NOT want the government thinking how they did this was a good idea. They completely turned accepted laws and systems on their heads. As I've argued, if this had been a standard bankruptcy with the governments only role was in stating that they would gaurantee any money, I would not have the problems with this that I do. They government had no place telling investors that they can just forget their place because the government have others they want to place ahead of you.

    The people who run the technology are rarely the same people that it replaces.
    Jobs are jobs.

    I don't care if they agree, the reality of the situation is that they would pay more to buy most U.S. made products.

    I know that to be the case because I do it. I'm not speculating about it being the case, I'm encountering it being the case.
    This is starting to change. Once China has the market they can charge whatever they want. I did recently find a small portable heater. Made in the U.S.A It was the same price as the import models.

    [quote]If you are doing what I do -buying the majority of things locally and US made- then you are special (at least compared to the majority overall, your local region might be different, though). I also support things to encourage it. But I'm also fairly realistic about what percentage of people will be willing to go that route, at least in my region. [quote]

    Majority? I can't find a majority of things. I do look. It's a bit of a joke with my wife and daughter.......she's 10. She and her mom will be out shopping and she'll come home and say "Look dad, made in the U.S.". LOL

    Perhaps you live in a region of the US where a higher proportion of people are willing to go this route, or it's much easier to buy your food locally (which will make it cheaper)
    I do not know that the people in this area would pay more or not. Many say they want to be able to purchase U.S. items but I'm not sure how many would pay more or how much more.

    They've had a choice, they've simply not made that choice. They weren't willing to make the necessary sacrifices that go along with that choice.

    It's silly to assume that since one choice is far easier, no other options exist. They can research the companies they patronize, they can look at labels, they can shop at locally owned stores, etc. If one is determined enough, they can still find American-made versions of most products
    I tried to find a coffee pot made in the U.S. I couldn't do it. I tried to find a floor jack made in the U.S. The only ones I could find were large commercial units. I bought a used one because the Chinese ones are ****.

    There's one very important reason. No matter what, there will always be some country where cheaper labor can be found than what can be found here. And the part in bold is important. People typically won't pay more for equal quality products either. Just because something is American-made doesn't mean it'll be higher quality. That's part of the problem that got us here. Equal quality can be found cheaper.
    I believe that is often times the case but not because it has to be. Look at refrigerators. You once got like 3 year warranties with many times 5-10 years on certain parts. We could still make them that well. Now they have 6 months warranties because they are made so poorly. (elsewhere)

    The only thing that can change the outsourcing issue would be if everyone took the stance of buying American-made products simply because they are American-made. If they boycotted products, regardless of quality and price, that are a product of outsourcing.
    I have to have my coffee.

    I guess I don't have as much faith in people as you do.

  2. #122
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    Re: Gm moves to China

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    I have learned to read between the lines, words have meanings yes but they are often as not meaningless.

    You are the one misusing the word "loan" though.

    True statement: GM used funds that they received from the government's investment in the company to pay back the loans that they received from the government.

    False statement: [GM payed back] one gov loan with another gov loan.


    It's important for us to use the right words in this context because the incorrect words that you chose to use imply that we will eventually receive payment from GM to pay back the funds that they used to pay off their loans, which is not true.

    Loans would get paid back. The funds that they used will not get paid back. The only way to recoup those funds is by selling off the investment that created them. In order to recoup as much as possible, the stocks that they were used on need to increase in value.

    It's a ssimple as that. Your false statement is not only misleading, it also has a totally different method of recuperation.

  3. #123
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    Re: Gm moves to China

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Here is my problem. I DO NOT want the government thinking how they did this was a good idea. They completely turned accepted laws and systems on their heads. As I've argued, if this had been a standard bankruptcy with the governments only role was in stating that they would gaurantee any money, I would not have the problems with this that I do. They government had no place telling investors that they can just forget their place because the government have others they want to place ahead of you.
    You know what, after reading this post I realize that we agree on a lot more than we disagree on. And the portion above is actually a very good point. I also do not want people to think that the bailout was a good idea, so it does make sense to remind people of it's faults and flaws. This wouldn't be dwelling on the past so much as it is an attempt to prevent the same mistakes in the future.



    Majority? I can't find a majority of things. I do look. It's a bit of a joke with my wife and daughter.......she's 10. She and her mom will be out shopping and she'll come home and say "Look dad, made in the U.S.". LOL

    I hear you on that. It's a pain in the ass. I do a good portion of my shopping online because of it.


    I tried to find a coffee pot made in the U.S. I couldn't do it. I tried to find a floor jack made in the U.S. The only ones I could find were large commercial units. I bought a used one because the Chinese ones are ****.
    I recommend Bunn for coffee makers:

    Bunn Coffee Makers - Buy Wholesale and Save on full line of Bunn. Bunn Coffee Maker. - Bunn Coffeemakers

    I'd say to look for a Hein Werner floor jack. I believe they are still made in the USA, but they are a bit pricey.


    But I have trouble finding a lot of things too. I still can't find an American-made TV. When I encounter situations where I can't buy American made, I make sure to purchase the foreign made product from a locally owned store (as opposed to some big box store). For example, in the Chicago area we are lucky enough to have a large locally-owned appliance store called Abt Electronics that is phenomenal (They have incredible service and they employ more than a few friends of mine). I get most of my appliances and electronics from there (like my Bunn coffee maker ). Some are made in the USA, some aren't (Like I said, I can't find a TV made in the USA anymore).

    Another nice thing about shopping local is that I get to know my local retailers and they can sometimes help me find products made in the USA, which I will then purchase from them so that I get to do my part in two different ways. Not to mention that you get such superior service in most cases. Hell, I've even bartered with some local businesses where I did some carpentry or other construction work for them in exchange for products and services. You can't do that with corporations.

    But as I said earlier, we seem to agree more than disagree. I just wanted to focus on the things you said that really caught my attention.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 09-30-11 at 09:25 AM.

  4. #124
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    Re: Gm moves to China

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You are the one misusing the word "loan" though.

    True statement: GM used funds that they received from the government's investment in the company to pay back the loans that they received from the government.

    False statement: [GM payed back] one gov loan with another gov loan.



    It's important for us to use the right words in this context because the incorrect words that you chose to use imply that we will eventually receive payment from GM to pay back the funds that they used to pay off their loans, which is not true.

    Loans would get paid back. The funds that they used will not get paid back. The only way to recoup those funds is by selling off the investment that created them. In order to recoup as much as possible, the stocks that they were used on need to increase in value.

    It's a ssimple as that. Your false statement is not only misleading, it also has a totally different method of recuperation.
    In this scenario the words loan and investment blur, tomAto, tomato.What matters is in the end we taxpayers get screwed. Like I said read between the lines and when politicians and lawyers speak realize words lose their meaning."Depens what the meaning of is, is", remember that?

  5. #125
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    Re: Gm moves to China

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    In this scenario the words loan and investment blur, tomAto, tomato.

    That is false. They do not blur, they aren't even remotely close to each other.

    What matters is in the end we taxpayers get screwed.
    We have the means of helping ourselves. I'm a personal responsibility type of guy. When faced with a ****ty situation, I work toward improving it. Hyperbole doesn't do squat to fix a ****ty situation, it only makes it worse.

    Like I said read between the lines and when politicians and lawyers speak realize words lose their meaning."Depens what the meaning of is, is", remember that?
    Just because you can use some form of irrational justification for butchering the English language doesn't mean you should employ that irrational justification in order to butcher the English language.

    You are engaging in the very same nonsense that you claim to oppose when you decide to use a word incorrectly just to pretend you are making a valid point.

  6. #126
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    Re: Gm moves to China

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You know what, after reading this post I realize that we agree on a lot more than we disagree on. And the portion above is actually a very good point. I also do not want people to think that the bailout was a good idea, so it does make sense to remind people of it's faults and flaws. This wouldn't be dwelling on the past so much as it is an attempt to prevent the same mistakes in the future.
    I have found out that if people are willing to take the time to discuss differences they find out in the end that there differences aren't as big as they originally seemed. D.C. prefers accusing the other side of being demons. Our differences end up being not a major one.

    I hear you on that. It's a pain in the ass. I do a good portion of my shopping online because of it.
    I often times start there.

    I recommend Bunn for coffee makers:
    I must admit.........I generally just tell the wife I need a new coffee pot when the old one messes up (we have really hard water and they clog). I'm too lazy to use the filtered water we have in the fridge. LOL I'll look into the Bunn next time.

    [qoute]I'd say to look for a Hein Werner floor jack. I believe they are still made in the USA, but they are a bit pricey. [/quote]

    I did see those but like I said, the ones I saw were way more jack than what I needed.

    But I have trouble finding a lot of things too. I still can't find an American-made TV. When I encounter situations where I can't buy American made, I make sure to purchase the foreign made product from a locally owned store (as opposed to some big box store). For example, in the Chicago area we are lucky enough to have a large locally-owned appliance store called Abt Electronics that is phenomenal (They have incredible service and they employ more than a few friends of mine). I get most of my appliances and electronics from there (like my Bunn coffee maker ). Some are made in the USA, some aren't (Like I said, I can't find a TV made in the USA anymore).
    We still have a local television store. I like to go there just for the ambiance since they've been there for years. LOL

    Another nice thing about shopping local is that I get to know my local retailers and they can sometimes help me find products made in the USA, which I will then purchase from them so that I get to do my part in two different ways. Not to mention that you get such superior service in most cases. Hell, I've even bartered with some local businesses where I did some carpentry or other construction work for them in exchange for products and services. You can't do that with corporations.
    I've found that most local retailers are pleased to work with you on price if you find it lower online. I'm always willing to pay a bit of a premium to buy local also as I have somewhere to take it if there is a problem.

    But as I said earlier, we seem to agree more than disagree. I just wanted to focus on the things you said that really caught my attention.
    Thumbs up!!

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    Re: Gm moves to China

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    I have found out that if people are willing to take the time to discuss differences they find out in the end that there differences aren't as big as they originally seemed. D.C. prefers accusing the other side of being demons. Our differences end up being not a major one.
    Very true. Hell, I'm guilty of forgetting myself and becoming part of the problem from time to time.



    I've found that most local retailers are pleased to work with you on price if you find it lower online. I'm always willing to pay a bit of a premium to buy local also as I have somewhere to take it if there is a problem.
    The service definitely makes up for any extra cost most of the time. And they will work with you on price, which is also nice.

    And my local retailers get a faithful client who gives them as much free word of mouth advertising as possible for it.

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    Re: Gm moves to China

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You are the one misusing the word "loan" though.

    True statement: GM used funds that they received from the government's investment in the company to pay back the loans that they received from the government.

    False statement: [GM payed back] one gov loan with another gov loan.


    It's important for us to use the right words in this context because the incorrect words that you chose to use imply that we will eventually receive payment from GM to pay back the funds that they used to pay off their loans, which is not true.

    Loans would get paid back. The funds that they used will not get paid back. The only way to recoup those funds is by selling off the investment that created them. In order to recoup as much as possible, the stocks that they were used on need to increase in value.

    It's a ssimple as that. Your false statement is not only misleading, it also has a totally different method of recuperation.
    How much in subsidies is GM receiving to produce the Volt?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gm moves to China

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    That is false. They do not blur, they aren't even remotely close to each other.



    We have the means of helping ourselves. I'm a personal responsibility type of guy. When faced with a ****ty situation, I work toward improving it. Hyperbole doesn't do squat to fix a ****ty situation, it only makes it worse.



    Just because you can use some form of irrational justification for butchering the English language doesn't mean you should employ that irrational justification in order to butcher the English language.

    You are engaging in the very same nonsense that you claim to oppose when you decide to use a word incorrectly just to pretend you are making a valid point.
    Let’s see if we can find some common ground here. Will you agree that no matter what the exact word, we taxpayers are on the hook? Now I know you are kind of a word Nazi and “on the hook” doesn’t mean we are fish with a hook in our mouth ok. Try to focus, does GM owe us money or not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Let’s see if we can find some common ground here. Will you agree that no matter what the exact word, we taxpayers are on the hook? Now I know you are kind of a word Nazi and “on the hook” doesn’t mean we are fish with a hook in our mouth ok. Try to focus, does GM owe us money or not?
    Oh God! U used the word NAZI!!! Do u not realize all the doors u opened for this word bozo! (and just because I used the word "bozo" does not make me afraid of clowns...at least not ALL clowns...)

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