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Thread: Occupy Wall Street Enters Its Fourth Day, Tensions Rise

  1. #321
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street Enters Its Fourth Day, Tensions Rise

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    So in your opinon, each individual bank, is responsible for a global economic bubble?
    No. I think the banks failing played a large part here, though. It seems that each different section of the global economy had its own vulnerabilities that were exposed once our economy began to crash. There is a book out that I would like to read that goes into that entire topic. It is actually by the same guy I quoted earlier, Michael Lewis. It is called "Boomerang" (I think). I did not read "The Big Short" either, but I would like to read that one as well.

    For this country, and this is all going to be a laymen's viewpoint, I saw everything go as a domino effect. First the housing market burst. This caused banks to have to reassess their assets and tighten up the cash supply. Shortly thereafter, they realized, "Holy ****, we have a lot of AAA securities that are garbage and these things are worth absolutely nothing". Those were a giant deduction from the Asset side of the ledger. This brought about all sorts of solvency issues and causes thousands of banks nationwide to head towards bankruptcy. Even the few that were not going bankrupt were not financing to anyone. So if a small business had a giant machine go out, they had to pay cash to fix it instead of borrowing that money. There go more jobs. Plus no new businesses could pop up to fill voids since they could not get loans. There go more jobs. And the list goes on, et al. We all know the story. And none of that even touches on the idea of confidence in the market, which plays a huge role as well.

    That is how I look at what happened here in the U.S..
    Last edited by whysoserious; 10-05-11 at 04:51 PM.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street Enters Its Fourth Day, Tensions Rise

    It’s Time for Swaps to Lose Their Swagger

    "Concerns are growing about such swaps — securities that offer insurance-like protection and helped tip over the American International Group in 2008 when it couldn’t pay mounting claims on the contracts."

    "High-octane trading may be counterproductive to taxpayers, for sure. But not to the speculators who win big when such transactions pay off. And in the case of A.I.G., the speculators got their winnings from the taxpayers."

    "DERIVATIVES are responsible for much of the interconnectedness between banks and other institutions that made the financial collapse accelerate in the way that it did, costing taxpayers hundreds of billions in bailouts. Yet credit default swaps have been largely untouched by financial reform efforts."

    Fair Game - Who Will Rein In Those Credit Default Swaps? - NYTimes.com
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street Enters Its Fourth Day, Tensions Rise

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    So ethics play no role in your view of the business world? Also, do not talk in a condescending tone to me. I have provided sources, I have tried my best to teach you as much as I can about unethical derivatives trading. You have not done ****. I am only trying to ask questions so I can figure out exactly what your viewpoint is since you have done an absolutely terrible job in describing it and backing it up with reason.

    That's your problem, not mine.
    I did you a favor and answered your question. It was you who came back condescending, and I explained why.

    The problem here with a few of the more liberal posters, as I see it, is that you approach this as "one size fits all blame", and then hone in on that aspect you want to demonize, and blame them for the big picture.

    Ethics, good or bad, are a part of business. Where we have laws, we try to prevent, or prosecute, ethics which cross those lines. But like it or not, it does not matter with the housing bubble. Inflation in the housing market created a whole lot of winners, and virtually no losers, for a long time. Ethics was not going to change that fact. When the bubble finally burst, those left holding the bag now represented a whole lot of losers, and very few winners. Regardless of ethics, there was going to be a loser for every prior winner. Remember, for everyone in an upside-down mortgage, a prior owner did real well for themselves.

    If your argument is that the banks should not have bought derivatives, I am not arguing that. Again, those were free choices in a capitalist market, and for every loser, there was already a winner. Heck, they looked great on paper until the bubble burst. Those that lost the most gambled the most. It might suck, but that is how it works.

    If the argument is for banking reform, I have not voiced against it. I was in favor of TARP, for while I understand the concept of letting companies, and even an industry, fail, sometimes certain failures will be too costly in their ripple effect. Banks are like the oil in the engine. It fails, and the entire economy blows up. TARP was a big success IMMHO.

    If you want to look to MBS's (Mortgage backed securities) and derivatives, that die was cast by Robert Ruben, Clinton's Sec of Treasury. Folks want to blame the repeal of Glass Steagle, and note that Phil Gramm helped co-sponsor it. Let there be no doubt. The reason for the repeal was the enable the merger of Citibank and Traveler's, the pet-project of Ruben. He nurtured it along right to when Bill Clinton signed the repeal. And CitiGroup now was born. And Ruben eventually served on their board.

    Back to the Recession. Banks had to fail when a housing bubble that big bursts. Winners and losers.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 10-05-11 at 05:27 PM.

  4. #324
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street Enters Its Fourth Day, Tensions Rise

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    No. I think the banks failing played a large part here, though. It seems that each different section of the global economy had its own vulnerabilities that were exposed once our economy began to crash. There is a book out that I would like to read that goes into that entire topic. It is actually by the same guy I quoted earlier, Michael Lewis. It is called "Boomerang" (I think). I did not read "The Big Short" either, but I would like to read that one as well.
    I'll be reading them too. The Boomerang guy was cracking me up last night talking about Iceland, where the men came off the fishing boats and became investment bankers literally overnight, and thought they were naturally gifted. It's so staggeringly dumb I just want to indulge in it for a while!

    For this country, and this is all going to be a laymen's viewpoint, I saw everything go as a domino effect. First the housing market burst.
    Yes but the first domino, and the vulnerabilities, were put in the charge of the government to watch, and prevent! According to wikipedia anyway

    There is no orgnaization of worth I've been involved in where some of the first questions are
    1. who is responsible
    2. do they have the power to enforce that responsibility

    This applies to any organization, be it a general, a hospital director, a book store owner, to the person that cleans your home. So, who was in charge, and had the power to enforce it?...

    Yes, private markets in the finance industry have been shown to be entirely capable of brining a nations economy, and the world economy, to a grinding halt. We learned this in great depression, we learned it again during S&L. Why are we having to learn this same lesson again?

    Who was put in charge of this AFTER the great depression? Government. S&L? More government. Mortgage crisis? How can we say banks were at fault, when we've already demonstrated that banks can result in bubbles and threaten the economy! This has been a given for some time, it is not new.

    Let me put it this way. This will happen again, if there is no change. All banks could go under, and be re-formed. Everyone at every bank could be replaced. And based on the evidence I'm aware of, the exact same bubble will again occur if it's not prevented from doing so. If there is every a good application of government, financial regulations to help prevent economic collapse has to be one of them right? Maybe not..but at least we should try it for a few decades?

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street Enters Its Fourth Day, Tensions Rise

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Winners and losers.
    I was under the impression the total economic value has dropped, globally. Yes, winners and losers...but net loss.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street Enters Its Fourth Day, Tensions Rise

    Someone earlier asked what people were protesting about. It seems fairly clear from what they are saying:

    "John Hildebrand, 24, an unemployed teacher from Norman, Oklahoma, sat up in his sleeping bag around 10 a.m. He said he arrived Saturday after getting a cheap plane ticket to New*York.

    "My issue is corporate influence in politics," he said. "I would like to eliminate corporate financing from*politics."

    "One supporter, William Stack, sent an email to city officials urging that all charges be dropped against those*arrested.
    "It is not a crime to demand that our money be spent on meeting people's needs, not for massive corporate bailouts," he wrote. "The real criminals are in the boardrooms and executive offices on Wall Street, not the people marching for jobs, health care, and a moratorium on*foreclosures."

    "Jackie Fellner, a marketing manager from Westchester County, north of the city, said she has an issue with "big money dictating which politicians get elected and what programs get*funded."
    Wall St. protesters dress as 'corporate zombies' - Houston Chronicle

    "they speak against corporate greed, social inequality, global climate change and other concerns."

    "The growing, national movement “signals a shift in consciousness,” said Jared Schy, a young man sitting squeezed between three others who participated in Saturday’s march from Manhattan’s Financial District to the bridge"

    "On Sunday, a group of New York public school teachers sat in the plaza, including Denise Martinez of Brooklyn. Most students at her school live at or below the poverty level, and her classes are jammed with up to about 50 students.
    “These are America’s future workers, and what’s trickling down to them are the problems — the unemployment, the crime,” she said. She blamed Wall Street for causing the country’s financial problems and said it needed to do more to solve them."

    Wall St. protests grow and spread | Protesters speak out against corporate influence on politics
    Last edited by Catawba; 10-05-11 at 06:20 PM.
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  7. #327
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street Enters Its Fourth Day, Tensions Rise

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    I was under the impression the total economic value has dropped, globally. Yes, winners and losers...but net loss.
    Not really. You say "dropped". Dropped from where ? Housing, or Net Asset value ? From 2008 ? 2001? 1997 ?

    I think that the accurate point would be that we took two steps forward, and three steps back. I believe we have similar views of housing being the first, and largest. domino to drop. But then, as I mentioned earlier, the Recession gained momentum from two additional components. There is no confidence in the economy, and for many, no discretionary money. So while housing is pretty much an even split of winners and losers, especially as we are talking of the uber-inflation that occupied about 8 years, a recession it induces, and which is compounded by the other matters, touches much more. Were everyone to just stop spending on all but the minimal essentials tomorrow, we'd see a further drop in all asset values. And more business fails. More unemployment. Less government revenue. Etc.

    Back to banking and Wall Street. You note that government was a root evil here. Agreed. I would ask other posters to reconsider. While smaller bubbles come and go in a capitalist economy, and all who can profit from it should be expected to do so by any legal means available, I submit that two interventions by government directly caused this enormous bubble:

    1) The deliberate infusion of approximately 10% more buyers into the market in the late 90's, primarily sub-prime applicants, done by legal coercion and guaranteed underwriting by FF; and

    2) The expansion of Fannie and Freddie (FF) to where they underwrote over half the new mortgages in all the land by 2003. That's you and me folks, screwed by our own government, guaranteeing loans that otherwise only a fool would make, but where now one would be a fool not to write them.

    Not the banks.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street Enters Its Fourth Day, Tensions Rise

    This will probably get me banned but its worth looking at some of the turds in this anti-capitalism movement....

    I love the smell of burning moonbat in the morning.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street Enters Its Fourth Day, Tensions Rise

    Jesus Christ those people in the image above are a bunch of idiots.

    And.. sadly.... this is your next generation of Americans..........

    What a bunch of cry babies....
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street Enters Its Fourth Day, Tensions Rise

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Jesus Christ those people in the image above are a bunch of idiots.

    And.. sadly.... this is your next generation of Americans..........

    What a bunch of cry babies....
    Yeah, someone should just throw the Molotov Cocktail already.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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