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Thread: Tea Party Crowd Yells Let Him Die

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    Re: Tea Party Crowd Yells Let Him Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post

    The "let her legally authorized representative decide" side. I am a firm believer in the right to die, that's a pretty standard (if politically incorrect) libertarian belief.
    Sounds like you're being consistant, but that is a bit vague of an answer since who had that legal authority was at the root of the debate. So you sided with her husband, Michael Schiavo, who wanted to let her die?

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    Re: Tea Party Crowd Yells Let Him Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbuti View Post
    Sounds like you're being consistant, but that is a bit vague of an answer since who had that legal authority was at the root of the debate. So you sided with her husband, Michael Schiavo, who wanted to let her die?
    There is no dispute that the husband is the legal representative. I think the whole thing is really nobody else's business.

    Anyway you're right, it is consistent. If you think Terry Schiavo's husband should be allowed to choose, because he is her proxy by way of her own earlier decision, then the same applies to the uninsured man. His own earlier decision not to take responsible steps to protect himself has consequences, just like Terry Schiavo's decisions did. It's all about personal responsibility.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 09-17-11 at 11:55 AM.

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    Re: Tea Party Crowd Yells Let Him Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    ... plenty of people are "allowed to die" by the government all the time. Socialized healthcare is no panacea, pun intended. There will always be people that the system allows to die, the real question is do we want a system of coercion or a system of freedom?
    You are correct - health care is rationed, and will always be. The real question is about whether it should be rationed by the ability to pay. Being as left-libertarian as I am means that I don't always trust a "free" market to perfectly deliver the morally correct outcome - and we do have a responsibility as human beings to do the right things. I'm not at ALL a religious man, but to leave it all in the hands of the free market sounds too much like Pilate washing his hands of a matter of life and death. If we abdicate responsibility for morality, we have still made a moral choice.

    What is the best way to ration care? I could imagine up different systems... but every one would have detractors and those that saw it as unfair. There is no single "correct" answer here, and all anyone can do is "muddle through" with their humanity intact.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Tea Party Crowd Yells Let Him Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    They have a moral responsibility to help, sure, but that is between them and God. They should have a legal right to not help if they choose.
    Why does God have to have anything to do with it? Morality exists independent from theology. If it is between them and their fellow humans... then the choice is still the same.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Tea Party Crowd Yells Let Him Die

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    Why does God have to have anything to do with it? Morality exists independent from theology. If it is between them and their fellow humans... then the choice is still the same.
    Honestly, I don't see how morality can exist independent of theology. That just sounds like a baseless assertion to me. But look, it's not so much that morality his between man and God, it could be between man and the Tao, or man and the Grand Architect (I think that's what the masons call Him, right?), or it could be between man and "The Force" for all I care. The point is that government shouldn't be involved in enforcing morality. It's immoral to drink and gamble, but I don't want the government interfering with anybody's right to do those things either.

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    Re: Tea Party Crowd Yells Let Him Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Honestly, I don't see how morality can exist independent of theology....
    I believe in leading a moral life, because society cannot function well without a common and agreed upon sense of morality. And I would not want someone doing bad things to me, so I don't do bad things to others.

    And I do not believe in your God.

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    Re: Tea Party Crowd Yells Let Him Die

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    You are correct - health care is rationed, and will always be. The real question is about whether it should be rationed by the ability to pay. Being as left-libertarian as I am means that I don't always trust a "free" market to perfectly deliver the morally correct outcome - and we do have a responsibility as human beings to do the right things. I'm not at ALL a religious man, but to leave it all in the hands of the free market sounds too much like Pilate washing his hands of a matter of life and death. If we abdicate responsibility for morality, we have still made a moral choice.

    What is the best way to ration care? I could imagine up different systems... but every one would have detractors and those that saw it as unfair. There is no single "correct" answer here, and all anyone can do is "muddle through" with their humanity intact.
    I like your reasonable attitude, although I am always perplexed by left-libertarians. I am also wary of the "freedom to starve" thing, which is why I support some minimal government-enforced safety net. I am not an anarcho-capitalist, I am a minarchist libertarian. But the key word there is minimal.

    Healthcare isn't a right. It's a fact of scarcity that it will always be rationed, as you say. But if we treat healthcare as a right, then it's a slippery slope. Does that right extend to elective treatments? It just doesn't make sense. The only sensible thing for a leftist to do is divvy up healthcare equally for all, which diminishes the quality of healthcare for the top while raising it for the bottom. Sounds reasonable, but it's impossible to achieve without coercion.

    I don't think healthcare should, morally, be determined by ability to pay. But society has outvoted me. And unless I'm willing to coerce society into following my moral prejudices (which I am not), then I have no alternative but the accept the free market.

    If a fellow doesn't have insurance, he is at the mercy of fate and can only hope for the charity of others. That's his decision. He must accept the consequences of it. The upshot is, he's free.

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    Re: Tea Party Crowd Yells Let Him Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    I believe in leading a moral life, because society cannot function well without a common and agreed upon sense of morality. And I would not want someone doing bad things to me, so I don't do bad things to others.

    And I do not believe in your God.
    You don't need to believe in mine or anybody else's God to have morals. But those morals (notwithstanding whether they are theologically derived or merely asserted) are simply subjective prejudices, not anything to justify government infringement on human right to freedom of action.

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    Re: Tea Party Crowd Yells Let Him Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    You don't need to believe in mine or anybody else's God to have morals. But those morals (notwithstanding whether they are theologically derived or merely asserted) are simply subjective prejudices, not anything to justify government infringement on human right to freedom of action.
    morals derived from a book or no more legitimate than morals derived from societal consensus.

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    Re: Tea Party Crowd Yells Let Him Die

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    What is your excuse for the left using this same hierarchy?



    The hypocrisy is yours. The individual either takes care of his responsibility to cover his risk or he takes responsibility for convincing someone else to help. Your solution is just to try to force him into "responsible" behavior and failing that, force others to help. In your scheme there is no personal responsibility, charity or freedom. It is all just force. It does not work, never has and never will.
    The right is so deluded they think convincing someone else to give them charity is a form of "personal responsibility"




    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    That's the issue. Force versus freedom. Are you at all familiar with libertarian thought? If not then why bother pretending that you have the capacity to discuss it? Force leads to an increase, not a decrease, in irresponsible behavior.
    "Libertarian thought" is an oxymoron
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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