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Thread: With no ammunition, pilot ordered to take down United 93

  1. #31
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    Re: With no ammunition, pilot ordered to take down United 93

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    At the end of the day, it's a fact that the passengers of Flight 93 attempted to re-take the aircraft; IMO all the passengers of Flight 93 supported that effort.

    Whether the aircraft was shot down, or it was crashed by the Muslim bastards that hijacked it, is of no matter, because those Americans displayed the first mettle in our war against the Muslim terrorists. They were the first to take the fight to the enemy. They fought the good fight, because they prevented that aircraft from reaching it's target.
    I think the sidewinder heat sinking missile used to shoot the plane down had more to do with it than the passengers did, but whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    NO, the terrorists put the aircraft in a dive, the passengers tried to recover. That caused the break up.
    No, no amount of control input will cause the engine to fall off. It would lose its wings long before it's engines. Trust me on this, I'm a pilot and an airplane mechanic. I don't doubt that the plane was in a dive, but the last thing that would come off is an engine. The bolts holding those things on are incredibly strong.
    Last edited by dontworrybehappy; 09-12-11 at 12:03 PM.

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    Re: With no ammunition, pilot ordered to take down United 93

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    He's right, it is a bad proposal.

    First, there are air defenses near sensitive areas. Second, there are procedures for identifying lost aircraft and aircraft with malicious intent. In fact, there are...on any given day...20+ aircraft that violate the "Temporary Flight Restriction" airspace. Third, even with a lot of training, it is not easy for a shoulder fired missile to find a moving target that is as small as a Cessna or even a corporate jet. A missed shot will probably land in a densely populated neighborhood. The odds of success versus the risk do not warrant the use of shoulder fired ground to air missiles.
    or, put simply, how the hell would you even identify a small plane with a pilot that had malicious intentions before it's too late...with the airliners, we knew something was wrong because ATC had lost contact with the pilots, and because the planes veered off their normal course. How the hell would you even do that with general aviation? And assuming you did somehow identify such an aircraft, how can you guarantee that law enforcement could respond effectively and shoot it down in the nick of time?? And even given THAT, such a shootdown would still be potentially dangerous for civilians on the ground, especially in urban areas. This is an utterly idiotic proposal.

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    Re: With no ammunition, pilot ordered to take down United 93

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    No, no amount of control input will cause the engine to fall off. It would lose its wings long before it's engines. Trust me on this, I'm a pilot and an airplane mechanic. I don't doubt that the plane was in a dive, but the last thing that would come off is an engine. The bolts holding those things on are incredibly strong.
    No you are not. If you were, you'd know about shear pins. Boeing has mounted all of their power plants with shear pins since...well I don't know when...but long before the 757/767. They've had power plants separate from 747's and 737's for a lot less than a hard pull out of a dive that lead to an over speed. Do you really think that the wings can fall off, the fuselage break up, elevator separate and the only thing that is guaranteed to stay on is the engine? You're full of it. The power plant is designed to separate under certain circumstances and an aircraft that is being flown by a novice in a critical phase of flight is not going to be piloted smoothly.
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    Re: With no ammunition, pilot ordered to take down United 93

    Why does everyone think it would have been easy to go ram that jetliner? Imagine one thing going 500 mph trying to hit another thing going 500 mph. You think fighter pilots train for that? Hell no.
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    Re: With no ammunition, pilot ordered to take down United 93

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Why does everyone think it would have been easy to go ram that jetliner? Imagine one thing going 500 mph trying to hit another thing going 500 mph. You think fighter pilots train for that? Hell no.
    Imagine with living with yourself if you had ejected and missed...

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    Re: With no ammunition, pilot ordered to take down United 93

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Imagine with living with yourself if you had ejected and missed...
    You can't eject, you have to fly it all the way.
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    Re: With no ammunition, pilot ordered to take down United 93

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    You can't eject, you have to fly it all the way.
    well, you don't really "have" to do it one way or the other, but they were thinking about ejecting, but Lt. Penney was also afraid of what would happened if she ejected and missed.

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    Re: With no ammunition, pilot ordered to take down United 93

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Mid-air refueling operations still have a pilot on-board to make the necessary adjustments. Between the wake turbulence, the ejection force, the fighter's inherent instability, and the sudden change in center-of-gravity of the F-16, collision is unlikely in a rear approach.

    Better off in a head-on approach. Higher rate of closure means shorter time for things to mess up... although the aiming and timing becomes much harder.

    While I'm not one to normally pull credentials, you do have two professional pilots telling you that this isn't as easy as you think it is.
    you do have two professional pilots telling you that this isn't as easy as you think it is.
    I figured as such, and I am not doubting what you two are saying. Just being the devils advocate, I appreciate the correction in my way of thinking, I thought perhaps in this day and age auto pilot and fly by wire would have made things a bit easier.

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    Re: With no ammunition, pilot ordered to take down United 93

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    Apparently you didn't watch the video. There were reports a second debris field was blocked off 6-8 miles from the crash site. If the plane was supposedly taken over by passengers who put it into a dive, the debris field would not be all spread out over miles. The plane was shot down, just accept that. It's not a big deal, nobody did anything wrong. One of the engines was found in the secondary debris field. That would be what a heat seeking missile would target, and one of the most well bolted on pieces of the plane unlikely to come off in a high speed dive on it's own.
    Breakup in-flight is not uncommon in extreme stresses like a panicked terrorist might do when the passengers are trying to break down the door. Also, the engine is actually one of the worst bolted on pieces of the plane - they're designed to break away clean if too much stress is applied so as to not risk taking the wing with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    No, no amount of control input will cause the engine to fall off. It would lose its wings long before it's engines. Trust me on this, I'm a pilot and an airplane mechanic. I don't doubt that the plane was in a dive, but the last thing that would come off is an engine. The bolts holding those things on are incredibly strong.
    Let me guess - you've never flown or maintained an airline-sized jet?
    Last edited by Deuce; 09-12-11 at 09:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: With no ammunition, pilot ordered to take down United 93

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    The aircraft broke up at altitude as a result of severe control inputs. If the aircraft was at 36,000 feet the piece that traveled the farthest in relation to the piece that traveled the least would have only had to travel 1/2 mile or 3000 feet per 1000 feet it descended. Considering some pieces would be heavy and very little aerodynamic properties and other pieces would have aerodynamic properties that would allow them to "float" and travel farther.

    The debris field is not an inconsistency. Columbia had a 150 mile debris field. More over, an aircraft known to have exploded in air due to an attack was scattered over 81 miles.
    My point being is what the news was broadcasts and the debris field later reported, then the most puzzling thing was the complete apparent black out it seems of this story. Not saying it is a conspiracy actuallyfar from it, and I would completely understand the protection and identity of a fighter pilot that actually had to pull the trigger.

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