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Thread: Bachmann: I'll get gas under $2

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    Re: Bachmann: I'll get gas under $2

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    With new technology more oil is being found and being made accessible all the time, not to mention oil shale which rivals Saudi oil fields in potential.
    True.. but at what price? Oil onshore 50 m underground like it was in Titusville PA in 1859 is a lot easier to get than resources like arctic oil under miles of ice, water, and sediment. Oil will NEVER "run out" it will just relentlessly continue to become more difficult to extract and refine into useful products (and generally more expensive).

    Think about it - you don't pick the apples from the top of the tree first. The good stuff's gone.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Bachmann: I'll get gas under $2

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    True.. but at what price? Oil onshore 50 m underground like it was in Titusville PA in 1859 is a lot easier to get than resources like arctic oil under miles of ice, water, and sediment. Oil will NEVER "run out" it will just relentlessly continue to become more difficult to extract and refine into useful products (and generally more expensive).

    Think about it - you don't pick the apples from the top of the tree first. The good stuff's gone.
    The easy stuffs gone yes but the hard stuff is just as good.
    Recently I kayaked into a spot in Glacier National Park that was the site of one of the 1st oil finds in the far west. It was literally bubbling out of the ground. The story on it was 100 miles of wagon road built to get this stuff out to nearest city in 50 gallon drums; the easy stuff wasn’t really that easy. Getting oil has always been tough work and cutting edge technology.

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    Re: Bachmann: I'll get gas under $2

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    The easy stuffs gone yes but the hard stuff is just as good.
    Recently I kayaked into a spot in Glacier National Park that was the site of one of the 1st oil finds in the far west. It was literally bubbling out of the ground. The story on it was 100 miles of wagon road built to get this stuff out to nearest city in 50 gallon drums; the easy stuff wasn’t really that easy. Getting oil has always been tough work and cutting edge technology.
    I don't know how much you want to get into the physics of this... but the key idea is ER/EI, a ratio of energy return divided by energy invested. First, although it's a little of an oversimplification, for this example, lets say all barrels of oil contain the same amount of chemical energy. Call it k. Now... if the oil is just popping right out of the ground, EI, the energy needed to invest in extraction is very low - just whatever it takes to bottle the stuff. This oil has a high ER/EI (aka EROEI). Some of the highest EROEIs were in the early days of Saudi Arabia - over 100.

    Now, as extraction requires more and more energy, eventually EI becomes the same size as k. In that case, EROEI = 1, meaning you get just as much energy out as you had to put into producing the stuff - not really a winning proposition.

    So... the problem is, that as EI increases over time EROEI drops, and eventually becomes less than 1, at which point it doesn't make (energetic) sense to take the stuff out of the ground.

    eroi.jpg
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Bachmann: I'll get gas under $2

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    I don't know how much you want to get into the physics of this... but the key idea is ER/EI, a ratio of energy return divided by energy invested. First, although it's a little of an oversimplification, for this example, lets say all barrels of oil contain the same amount of chemical energy. Call it k. Now... if the oil is just popping right out of the ground, EI, the energy needed to invest in extraction is very low - just whatever it takes to bottle the stuff. This oil has a high ER/EI (aka EROEI). Some of the highest EROEIs were in the early days of Saudi Arabia - over 100.

    Now, as extraction requires more and more energy, eventually EI becomes the same size as k. In that case, EROEI = 1, meaning you get just as much energy out as you had to put into producing the stuff - not really a winning proposition.

    So... the problem is, that as EI increases over time EROEI drops, and eventually becomes less than 1, at which point it doesn't make (energetic) sense to take the stuff out of the ground.

    eroi.jpg
    Interesting graph I guess but I question its accuracy. For one thing I know I put wayyyyy more work into getting my firewood every year than that graph shows! Seriously though if oil shale and tar sand was that low on the value ratio I seriously doubt oil comps would be so eager to go after it. I have heard they only need price at over 70 bucks a barrel to make money. When oil was constantly dipping to 30 bucks a barrel they balked at these oil finds but I think those days are over and shale will come on line now. We will be swimming in reasonably priced oil.

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    Re: Bachmann: I'll get gas under $2

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Interesting graph I guess but I question its accuracy. For one thing I know I put wayyyyy more work into getting my firewood every year than that graph shows! Seriously though if oil shale and tar sand was that low on the value ratio I seriously doubt oil comps would be so eager to go after it. I have heard they only need price at over 70 bucks a barrel to make money. When oil was constantly dipping to 30 bucks a barrel they balked at these oil finds but I think those days are over and shale will come on line now. We will be swimming in reasonably priced oil.
    True true true... which is why oil will never "run out," just get more and more expensive long-term. Calculating ERoEI is a tricky business, and as you guess, estimates vary pretty widely. As for dollars... a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow, so it gets tricky to do the math. A megajoule is a megajoule though.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Bachmann: I'll get gas under $2

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    let the crazy promises begin!!

    bachmann: I'll get gas under $2 - dan berman and molly ball - politico.com



    how do you think that'll happen. Isn't oil freely traded? I guess you could nationalize the oil industry and regulate gas prices. That would be nothing like socialism...
    she must of have taken lessons from obama, promising everything under the sun and no delivery.
    Last edited by Red Crow; 08-19-11 at 05:28 PM.
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    Re: Bachmann: I'll get gas under $2

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Crow View Post
    she must of have taken lessons from obama, promising everything under the sun and no delivery.
    Now that Bachmann's running on "Hope" and "Change," I take it that's OK now.


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    Re: Bachmann: I'll get gas under $2

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Now that Bachmann's running on "Hope" and "Change," I take it that's OK now.
    I reckon that you will vote for her now.
    Catch me if you can.

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    Re: Bachmann: I'll get gas under $2

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Let the crazy promises begin!!

    Bachmann: I'll get gas under $2 - Dan Berman and Molly Ball - POLITICO.com

    How do you think that'll happen. Isn't oil freely traded? I guess you could nationalize the oil industry and regulate gas prices. That would be nothing like socialism...
    senseless regulations that inhibit growth in the industry, open all known off shore sites as well as Anwr, which would put fear in the minds of OPEC and they would reduce the cost dramatically over night because they have nothing else to export bring in the cash they live on.

    There are more Dates grown in California than the middle east and market for sand and camels has been the pits for many years.

    The threat alone would bring down the cost and the reality of drilling would bring it down even farther.

    At the same time cars need to be produced that can run on natural gas and electricity need to be produced in larger numbers and cheaper by changing regulation and mandating charging be made available at cost. This would create jobs and reduce the demand for oil.

    Fork lifts and other machines have been running propane for a very long time natural gas is a no brainer.

    In the mean time we can put together a logical plan to exploit solar, and wind generating and use some of the money we waste on foreign

    aid to retrofit coal fired power plants so they are as clean as natural gas, or convert them to natural gas.

    Expand the use of Solar power for hone use by giving tax breaks for its installation and use.

    I would also mandate the better use insulation in all construction of new homes and the installation in older homes.

    There are other ways we can come up with ways to save on the use of power.

    If I can come up with this imagine what a genius could do.

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    Re: Bachmann: I'll get gas under $2

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Let the crazy promises begin!!

    Bachmann: I'll get gas under $2 - Dan Berman and Molly Ball - POLITICO.com



    How do you think that'll happen. Isn't oil freely traded? I guess you could nationalize the oil industry and regulate gas prices. That would be nothing like socialism...
    You mean another rightwinger is tossing their principles (in this case, keeping the govt out of the marketplace) under the bus?

    How shocking!!
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