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CAFE standards for big rigs.

Thank you for your fact free contribution, a boost of emotive incompetence is just what this thread needed.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
If you can explain 0 energy to keep 80,000 lbs moving im all ears or eyes in this case. Maybe always go downhill with motor off? You claim to be
a very intellegent inventor, invent a diesel motor capable of moving 80,000 lbs that gets great mileage then.You will be the richest man alive if you do. Until then you are all talk.
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Invention of a new diesel motor, while it would be a very good thing, is not necessary to meet the new standard, a 2 mpg increase over 7 years. This was already pointed out to you in post #46 and in post #234:

"This program, which relies heavily on off-the-shelf technologies, was developed in coordination with truck and engine manufacturers, fleet owners, the state of California, environmental groups and other stakeholders."
 
Catawba said:
Invention of a new diesel motor, while it would be a very good thing, is not necessary to meet the new standard, a 2 mpg increase over 7 years. This was already pointed out to you in post #46 and in post #234:

"This program, which relies heavily on off-the-shelf technologies, was developed in coordination with truck and engine manufacturers, fleet owners, the state of California, environmental groups and other stakeholders."
Click to expand...
You missed the zero energy to move 80,000 lbs once it's moving thing I see.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
You missed the zero energy to move 80,000 lbs once it's moving thing I see.
Click to expand...

I didn't miss it, I excused it, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with meeting the new standard. If you had not missed (3 times now) that the new standard can be met with "off-the-shelf technologies", you would know that.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
You missed the zero energy to move 80,000 lbs once it's moving thing I see.
Click to expand...
I see that you looked up the laws of physics are, and now know it takes zero energy to keep 80,000 lbs moving once it is moving. Trucks spent most of the time just working against friction, tires and air. Some drive line too.
It takes a lot of energy to accelerate 80,000 to 65, but nothing to keep it there unless there is friction. It’s the friction that uses all the energy, tires, air, drive line and a few very small things that don’t count.
 
OhIsee.Then said:
I see that you looked up the laws of physics are, and now know it takes zero energy to keep 80,000 lbs moving once it is moving. Trucks spent most of the time just working against friction, tires and air. Some drive line too.
It takes a lot of energy to accelerate 80,000 to 65, but nothing to keep it there unless there is friction. It’s the friction that uses all the energy, tires, air, drive line and a few very small things that don’t count.
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In the real world trucks pull 6% grades, they buck head winds, they get caught in traffic jams, they go for many miles on highways with stop lights and signs, they even go down town, they bump docks, they slam on the brakes for deer and have to go through all the gears again. Your world is in books, in a class room, in theory, in short, you suck, LOL.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
In the real world trucks pull 6% grades, they buck head winds, they get caught in traffic jams, they go for many miles on highways with stop lights and signs, they even go down town, they bump docks, they slam on the brakes for deer and have to go through all the gears again. Your world is in books, in a class room, in theory, in short, you suck, LOL.
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You can't even come close to my field experience. You are all talk and put down. But there's nothing there.
 
OhIsee.Then said:
You can't even come close to my field experience. You are all talk and put down. But there's nothing there.
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I see you’re a logger, lots of practical experience doing stuff yourself. My practical experience in dealing with trees is limited to cutting down only around ten over 50 ft tall, pines where I was helping my father build his Colorado cabin and a few here on my Michigan property. I have to do another soon since it putting our house at risk. The biggest truck I’ve driven a very old one, late 40’s or early 50’s, about 4 or 6 ton, while I was working construction outside San Luis Obispo, where Park Hill Rd. is now. Of course no syncros in the 4 speed and a 2 speed transfer case. Yup, and more than 6% grades when I went to pick up material down in San Luis Obispo. And last week I found the header rotting for our basement 8’ sliding glass door. Improper flashing was done by the original builder. Two of the three 2x12s were essentially rotted in half in the middle. I had to get out my joist jack to hold up the living room. To remove the two rotted headers, that they used to hang a large deck, I had to screw on a scab board with a chain to my pickup to pop them out. My wife helped me, mostly she was another pair of eyes. So, you have more experience with trucks and trees. How about kilns, potters wheels, slip casting, plumbing, roofing, room additions, 90 lb. jack hammer, etc. Last year I purchased a stand by generator. With no help I did the complete install, I did the propane, cement pad w/ anchors with my mixer, and all the electrical. With my book learning all I needed was two 60 watt incandescent lamps to check if it was running at 60 Hz. It works great. Have you ever done that? I know how to do stuff in many real worlds and I have. I bet you can’t match my real world experience.
 
OhIsee.Then said:
I see you’re a logger, lots of practical experience doing stuff yourself. My practical experience in dealing with trees is limited to cutting down only around ten over 50 ft tall, pines where I was helping my father build his Colorado cabin and a few here on my Michigan property. I have to do another soon since it putting our house at risk. The biggest truck I’ve driven a very old one, late 40’s or early 50’s, about 4 or 6 ton, while I was working construction outside San Luis Obispo, where Park Hill Rd. is now. Of course no syncros in the 4 speed and a 2 speed transfer case. Yup, and more than 6% grades when I went to pick up material down in San Luis Obispo. And last week I found the header rotting for our basement 8’ sliding glass door. Improper flashing was done by the original builder. Two of the three 2x12s were essentially rotted in half in the middle. I had to get out my joist jack to hold up the living room. To remove the two rotted headers, that they used to hang a large deck, I had to screw on a scab board with a chain to my pickup to pop them out. My wife helped me, mostly she was another pair of eyes. So, you have more experience with trucks and trees. How about kilns, potters wheels, slip casting, plumbing, roofing, room additions, 90 lb. jack hammer, etc. Last year I purchased a stand by generator. With no help I did the complete install, I did the propane, cement pad w/ anchors with my mixer, and all the electrical. With my book learning all I needed was two 60 watt incandescent lamps to check if it was running at 60 Hz. It works great. Have you ever done that? I know how to do stuff in many real worlds and I have. I bet you can’t match my real world experience.
Click to expand...

Actually I am impressed with your real world experience which makes me wonder how you could be so myopic in your thinking, just a personality thing I guess. Yes I have logged all my life except for a brief stint driving OTR so I could get experience to get a job driving log truck. I have spent most of my life in isolated logging camps from AZ to AK. There’s nothing to do at night except read so everyone brought books which we passed around after reading, that’s why I am so incredibly intelligent and well rounded, LOL. Currently I am building my new home with wood from my land which I harvest and mill. Its post and beam, lots a work but it will be nice. Built my last house too but with store bought lumber. New house is off grid solar which is a learning experience I must say. Now that we are formally introduced I don’t think your that bad and I take back you suck remark.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Actually I am impressed with your real world experience which makes me wonder how you could be so myopic in your thinking, just a personality thing I guess. Yes I have logged all my life except for a brief stint driving OTR so I could get experience to get a job driving log truck. I have spent most of my life in isolated logging camps from AZ to AK. There’s nothing to do at night except read so everyone brought books which we passed around after reading, that’s why I am so incredibly intelligent and well rounded, LOL. Currently I am building my new home with wood from my land which I harvest and mill. Its post and beam, lots a work but it will be nice. Built my last house too but with store bought lumber. New house is off grid solar which is a learning experience I must say. Now that we are formally introduced I don’t think your that bad and I take back you suck remark.
Click to expand...
You’re building off the grid. I’m very impressed. And it’s not what most others mean when they say “I’m building” which is actually “I’ve hired contractors” ;but, you’re making your lumber and pounding the nails in your design.
By the way I’ve been called myopic or worse often in my professional career. Often when I argued against building what the customer was asking for, made from building blocks in use currently. As a systems architect my responsibility was to project what the customer would need when the new product was delivered, therefore it needed to made with building blocks just becoming available. I was called myopic but their problem was my hyperopia.
 
"Cummins is already working on bringing new technology to market, and the company will be a year ahead of schedule to meet the requirements, said Rich Freeland, president of the company’s engine business.

“The big boost will be to those that meet the fuel-economy standards and do it at the lowest cost,” Freeland said. “We intend to get to the standards ahead of the dates that have been targeted.”

Cummins shares were up more than 5 percent Tuesday afternoon, to 88.18 each, along with an overall rise in the stock market."

"Trucking companies, who will bear the up-front costs of more expensive technology, will pay for the investments through fuel savings in 18 months to 24 months, said Bill Graves, president and CEO of the American Trucking Associations in Arlington, Virginia.

“It’s an exciting time for our industry,” Graves said to reporters outside the White House. “It was a win-win for everyone.”
Cummins OK with new federal fuel standards for trucks | 2011-08-09 | Indianapolis Business Journal | IBJ.com
 
Catawba said:
"Cummins is already working on bringing new technology to market, and the company will be a year ahead of schedule to meet the requirements, said Rich Freeland, president of the company’s engine business.

“The big boost will be to those that meet the fuel-economy standards and do it at the lowest cost,” Freeland said. “We intend to get to the standards ahead of the dates that have been targeted.”

Cummins shares were up more than 5 percent Tuesday afternoon, to 88.18 each, along with an overall rise in the stock market."

"Trucking companies, who will bear the up-front costs of more expensive technology, will pay for the investments through fuel savings in 18 months to 24 months, said Bill Graves, president and CEO of the American Trucking Associations in Arlington, Virginia.

“It’s an exciting time for our industry,” Graves said to reporters outside the White House. “It was a win-win for everyone.”
Cummins OK with new federal fuel standards for trucks | 2011-08-09 | Indianapolis Business Journal | IBJ.com
Click to expand...
If Cummins was already developing a more fuel efficient and dependable motor and then Obama said I command you to do it, it kinda seems like a cheap political trick doesn’t it?
 
I think the big question everyone needs to ask each other is: where is the hover technology Back to the Future II promised us would be here 2015?

Simply put, less friction = less energy to propel you forward.

3 1/2 years left. I think we can do it.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
If Cummins was already developing a more fuel efficient and dependable motor and then Obama said I command you to do it, it kinda seems like a cheap political trick doesn’t it?
Click to expand...

If that were the case, industry would be saying that instead of what they are actually saying, that this rule should be a model for how government and industry should work together for win/win outcomes.

You will have to make up something else now, sorry! :sun
 
Catawba said:
If that were the case, industry would be saying that instead of what they are actually saying, that this rule should be a model for how government and industry should work together for win/win outcomes.

You will have to make up something else now, sorry! :sun
Click to expand...

the industry is right to be happy about this.... i mean, I would be extremely happy if the government mandated my products/technology to be sold.
i'm sure the manufacturer wanted to get these newer technologies into the market... it means more money for them... and now they have they helping hand of government to ensure it happens.

the consumers of their products might feel differently after having to foot the bill for the stuff though.

there have been plenty of products/technologies available for years that help with fuel mileage for big rigs.. but most are dismissed by the "market" as not being a good enough value to invest in.
i owned my own Diesel Repair service for years, i've seen all sorts of new ideas on fuel mileage (good and bad) come and go.
some of the better ideas turned out to be far more costly than advertised ( when taking maintenance/repair/replacement into the equation).

truckers are a no-nonsense bunch of folks... they aren't going to be fooled by the yammerings of politicians and industry salesmen on how great anything is going to be.
if the industry can make the changes in mileage that will save them money happen, they'll be happy... but if it comes at a cost of significant investment in the new technology, or if it costs them in performance, they simply won't be happy about it... and they won't care much if Obama, Cummins, Cat, Kenworth, Democrats, the UAW or some environmentalist zealots are happy about it or not.


as for the idea that this is how industry and government should operate together....well, that the way it works with "special interests"... both the special interest and the government are generally pleased with the outcome of their collaboration and market manipulation.
 
Thrilla said:
the industry is right to be happy about this.... i mean, I would be extremely happy if the government mandated my products/technology to be sold.
i'm sure the manufacturer wanted to get these newer technologies into the market... it means more money for them... and now they have they helping hand of government to ensure it happens.

the consumers of their products might feel differently after having to foot the bill for the stuff though.

there have been plenty of products/technologies available for years that help with fuel mileage for big rigs.. but most are dismissed by the "market" as not being a good enough value to invest in.
i owned my own Diesel Repair service for years, i've seen all sorts of new ideas on fuel mileage (good and bad) come and go.
some of the better ideas turned out to be far more costly than advertised ( when taking maintenance/repair/replacement into the equation).

truckers are a no-nonsense bunch of folks... they aren't going to be fooled by the yammerings of politicians and industry salesmen on how great anything is going to be.
if the industry can make the changes in mileage that will save them money happen, they'll be happy... but if it comes at a cost of significant investment in the new technology, or if it costs them in performance, they simply won't be happy about it... and they won't care much if Obama, Cummins, Cat, Kenworth, Democrats, the UAW or some environmentalist zealots are happy about it or not.


as for the idea that this is how industry and government should operate together....well, that the way it works with "special interests"... both the special interest and the government are generally pleased with the outcome of their collaboration and market manipulation.
Click to expand...



Thanks for your opinion! :sun
 
Thrilla said:
truckers are a no-nonsense bunch of folks... they aren't going to be fooled by the yammerings of politicians and industry salesmen on how great anything is going to be.
Click to expand...

Here are what those to be regulated are saying in their own words:

"This regulation and the process used to establish it are a model for how government and business should work together to meet energy, environment and economic goals." Tim Solso, chairman and CEO of Cummins.

"With this rule, EPA and NHTSA have now set an example for what could be a worldwide GHG and fuel efficiency regulation for heavy duty trucks and engines." Daniel C. Ustian, Navistar chairman, president and CEO.

"We support the new federal regulations on greenhouse gas emissions and fuel efficiency as they affect the commercial vehicles industry. We have worked closely and productively with the EPA and NHTSA and look forward to continued collaboration on implementation of the new standards." Sean Waters, Director Compliance and Regulatory Affairs, Daimler Trucks North America

"This is an important milestone for our industry and our country. We are pleased to be part of a realistic solution that will ultimately help reduce greenhouse gas emissions and conserve natural resources by helping to increase the fuel efficiency of our industry." Douglas W. Stotlar, president and CEO of Con-way Inc.

"Commercial vehicles account for approximately 20 percent of transportation's fuel use, so fuel efficiency standards are essential to spur affordable and widely available cleaner delivery vehicles." Frederick W. Smith, president, CEO and chairman of FedEx Corp."
 
Catawba said:
Here are what those to be regulated are saying in their own words:

"This regulation and the process used to establish it are a model for how government and business should work together to meet energy, environment and economic goals." Tim Solso, chairman and CEO of Cummins.

"With this rule, EPA and NHTSA have now set an example for what could be a worldwide GHG and fuel efficiency regulation for heavy duty trucks and engines." Daniel C. Ustian, Navistar chairman, president and CEO.

"We support the new federal regulations on greenhouse gas emissions and fuel efficiency as they affect the commercial vehicles industry. We have worked closely and productively with the EPA and NHTSA and look forward to continued collaboration on implementation of the new standards." Sean Waters, Director Compliance and Regulatory Affairs, Daimler Trucks North America

"This is an important milestone for our industry and our country. We are pleased to be part of a realistic solution that will ultimately help reduce greenhouse gas emissions and conserve natural resources by helping to increase the fuel efficiency of our industry." Douglas W. Stotlar, president and CEO of Con-way Inc.

"Commercial vehicles account for approximately 20 percent of transportation's fuel use, so fuel efficiency standards are essential to spur affordable and widely available cleaner delivery vehicles." Frederick W. Smith, president, CEO and chairman of FedEx Corp."
Click to expand...

none of those guys are truckers.... 3 of them are manufacturers the other 2 are CEO's of very large trucking firms.
I actually know Stotlar..Con-way was one of my large fleet customers and have met him on a few occasions... George Motts, the now retired head of fleet maintenance for Con-way, was who i dealt with regularly though...Stotlar seemed like a good dude, but not very knowledgeable pertaining to the ins-n-outs of trucks.

I'm not inherently opposed to CAFE standards... but i will point out that they aren't all rainbows and unicorns either... there are downsides that can and will occur, some worse than others.
I see no point in ignoring the "bad" stuff and pretending everything about the issue is kosher.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
What exactly is the helping hand from the gov? Really I'm curious.
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the helping hand comes in the form of putting technologies and products into hte market without a market demand for them.

trucking manufacturers are like any other businesses, they really like to innovate... their engineers get all giddy with glee coming up with new stuff.
the downside is, not all of their innovations are marketable... sometimes the market says " ta hell with that crap, I ain't paying for it.. it ain't worth it".

so then a regulation comes down the pipe that mandates a certain standards that can be effectively met only with these developed technologies and products that the market would not previously accept.
it's not a matter of government saying " you will buy this widget and you will like it".. it's a collaboration.
the government says ' you gotta meet this standard", and the manufacturer say " awesome, i have this technology sitting ion the shelf that will do that".
of course, we are then faced with the notion that the end user will purchase these products, with the additional technology, whether they like it or not....
the regulation , in effect, creates a captured market that will overpay for the technology/products ( because they have no choice but to pay for the products, and the manufacturer will most definitely overcharge )

gimme an hour with a truck driver and about 300 bucks worth of already existing products/technologies/knowledge, and i'll give you your additional 2 mpg average on his truck... but i'm not a manufacturer looking to make additional billions of dollars, so i don't really count for much in the grand scheme of things.
 
Most if not all of the anti-CAFE posters, were or are hung up by their dogma. This prevented them from looking at the facts of what the government has contributed in this instance. I don’t like dogma since it prevents rational decisions; but, I’ll have to say it makes decisions easy.
 
man.. i hate it when someone comes along an explains your point of view better than you can.. with way less words...lol
 
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