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Thread: CAFE standards for big rigs.

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    Re: CAFE standards for big rigs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Here are what those to be regulated are saying in their own words:

    "This regulation and the process used to establish it are a model for how government and business should work together to meet energy, environment and economic goals." Tim Solso, chairman and CEO of Cummins.

    "With this rule, EPA and NHTSA have now set an example for what could be a worldwide GHG and fuel efficiency regulation for heavy duty trucks and engines." Daniel C. Ustian, Navistar chairman, president and CEO.

    "We support the new federal regulations on greenhouse gas emissions and fuel efficiency as they affect the commercial vehicles industry. We have worked closely and productively with the EPA and NHTSA and look forward to continued collaboration on implementation of the new standards." Sean Waters, Director Compliance and Regulatory Affairs, Daimler Trucks North America

    "This is an important milestone for our industry and our country. We are pleased to be part of a realistic solution that will ultimately help reduce greenhouse gas emissions and conserve natural resources by helping to increase the fuel efficiency of our industry." Douglas W. Stotlar, president and CEO of Con-way Inc.

    "Commercial vehicles account for approximately 20 percent of transportation's fuel use, so fuel efficiency standards are essential to spur affordable and widely available cleaner delivery vehicles." Frederick W. Smith, president, CEO and chairman of FedEx Corp."
    none of those guys are truckers.... 3 of them are manufacturers the other 2 are CEO's of very large trucking firms.
    I actually know Stotlar..Con-way was one of my large fleet customers and have met him on a few occasions... George Motts, the now retired head of fleet maintenance for Con-way, was who i dealt with regularly though...Stotlar seemed like a good dude, but not very knowledgeable pertaining to the ins-n-outs of trucks.

    I'm not inherently opposed to CAFE standards... but i will point out that they aren't all rainbows and unicorns either... there are downsides that can and will occur, some worse than others.
    I see no point in ignoring the "bad" stuff and pretending everything about the issue is kosher.

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    Re: CAFE standards for big rigs.

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    What exactly is the helping hand from the gov? Really I'm curious.
    the helping hand comes in the form of putting technologies and products into hte market without a market demand for them.

    trucking manufacturers are like any other businesses, they really like to innovate... their engineers get all giddy with glee coming up with new stuff.
    the downside is, not all of their innovations are marketable... sometimes the market says " ta hell with that crap, I ain't paying for it.. it ain't worth it".

    so then a regulation comes down the pipe that mandates a certain standards that can be effectively met only with these developed technologies and products that the market would not previously accept.
    it's not a matter of government saying " you will buy this widget and you will like it".. it's a collaboration.
    the government says ' you gotta meet this standard", and the manufacturer say " awesome, i have this technology sitting ion the shelf that will do that".
    of course, we are then faced with the notion that the end user will purchase these products, with the additional technology, whether they like it or not....
    the regulation , in effect, creates a captured market that will overpay for the technology/products ( because they have no choice but to pay for the products, and the manufacturer will most definitely overcharge )

    gimme an hour with a truck driver and about 300 bucks worth of already existing products/technologies/knowledge, and i'll give you your additional 2 mpg average on his truck... but i'm not a manufacturer looking to make additional billions of dollars, so i don't really count for much in the grand scheme of things.

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    Re: CAFE standards for big rigs.

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    What exactly is the helping hand from the gov? Really I'm curious.
    The development of new standards, that private companies contributed to, allowed private companies to move forward sooner with less risk.

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    Re: CAFE standards for big rigs.

    Most if not all of the anti-CAFE posters, were or are hung up by their dogma. This prevented them from looking at the facts of what the government has contributed in this instance. I donít like dogma since it prevents rational decisions; but, Iíll have to say it makes decisions easy.

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    Re: CAFE standards for big rigs.

    man.. i hate it when someone comes along an explains your point of view better than you can.. with way less words...lol

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    Re: CAFE standards for big rigs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    none of those guys are truckers.... 3 of them are manufacturers the other 2 are CEO's of very large trucking firms.
    I actually know Stotlar..Con-way was one of my large fleet customers and have met him on a few occasions... George Motts, the now retired head of fleet maintenance for Con-way, was who i dealt with regularly though...Stotlar seemed like a good dude, but not very knowledgeable pertaining to the ins-n-outs of trucks.

    I'm not inherently opposed to CAFE standards... but i will point out that they aren't all rainbows and unicorns either... there are downsides that can and will occur, some worse than others.
    I see no point in ignoring the "bad" stuff and pretending everything about the issue is kosher.
    What, do you mean drivers, is that what you mean by truckers? The parties to be regulated were involved in the regulation process, and they are in agreement with the outcome. They have stated the new technology required will pay for itself in fuel saving over a period of 18 - 24 months. How many years usage can someone get out of a well maintained tractor trailer? Looks like to me they are looking at a substantial savings over the life of the truck.

    How would you go about setting an industry pollution standard, as opposed to the way this one was done?
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    Re: CAFE standards for big rigs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What, do you mean drivers, is that what you mean by truckers? The parties to be regulated were involved in the regulation process, and they are in agreement with the outcome. They have stated the new technology required will pay for itself in fuel saving over a period of 18 - 24 months. How many years usage can someone get out of a well maintained tractor trailer? Looks like to me they are looking at a substantial savings over the life of the truck.

    How would you go about setting an industry pollution standard, as opposed to the way this one was done?
    yeah.. drivers and owner-operators...
    the CEO of fed-ex knows exactly nothing about trucks... he's a numbers and ideas kinda guy, as CEO's tend to be.... real truckers know everything about their truck and what it takes to operate it.

    i will guarantee you that whatever technology the put on these trucks to meet the CAFE standards will need maintenance and/or repair during this 18-24 month period.... how much that costs will depend upon the specific application... that is a very hard cost to assign when we try to figure out total cost, as it is dependent on a multitude of variables

    as for the lifespan of a tractor.. well, the chassis can last 40 years or so...a well maintained powerplant will last out to about a million miles or so ( it will cost about 5 times the value of the motor , in maintenance and repairs, to get it to last that long).. a well maintained power train ( transmission, brownie box, driveline, rear ends) will last out to about 300-500k miles before a rebuild is in the cards... clutches can go anywhere between 6 months and 10 years( depending on driving habits of the operator).. tires can last out to 200k, but that is pretty rare anymore... most truck will go through 1.5 sets of tires per year (about $7-$8k per year).

    by my calculations ( very simple ones, admittedly) i'm seeing about $19,000 in fuel savings per year under these new standards ( average miles driven / mpg X average diesel prices)... so it seem to me the manufacturers are advertising that the cost of the new standards will be between $29,000 and $38,000 bucks ( using their stated 18 -24 month recoup window).... if my figures are in the ballpark, that's a mighty hefty price to pay , considering new trucks run $80-$100 grand on average.

    the big firms ( Con-way, Yellow/Roadway, Fed Ex, Coca-cola) will pay substantially less for their trucks ( they buy or lease in volume), so their markup will be substantially less than the average owner operator sees... they might even be privy to subsidies and incentives to update their fleets ( which is usually the case when new standards roll down the pike)
    the big boys won't be hurt too bad by this, but the little guys, once again, will foot the bill in it's entirety.

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    Re: CAFE standards for big rigs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post

    gimme an hour with a truck driver and about 300 bucks worth of already existing products/technologies/knowledge, and i'll give you your additional 2 mpg average on his truck... but i'm not a manufacturer looking to make additional billions of dollars, so i don't really count for much in the grand scheme of things.
    If you really could for $300 increase mpg by 2, you really should be marketing it. You would make a fortune

    I would expect any trucking operation that could see 33% decrease in its fuel bill would jump at the chance. The first long distance haul would see the improvement pay for itself (assuming no negative factors in truck maintance or performance from the enhancement
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    Re: CAFE standards for big rigs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    If you really could for $300 increase mpg by 2, you really should be marketing it. You would make a fortune

    I would expect any trucking operation that could see 33% decrease in its fuel bill would jump at the chance. The first long distance haul would see the improvement pay for itself (assuming no negative factors in truck maintance or performance from the enhancement
    well, most of the mileage savings would come in changing the drivers driving habits.. so I could really only charge for a consulting fee...lol

    an engine oil drip system coupled with a low flow propane injection system( CNG fumigation works better, but it's more costly) would take care of the rest ( and save money on oil changes to boot).
    this stuff, and much more, has been known for years and years.. but lots of truckers/fleets won't do it because it voids warranties.

    i had quite a few customers with different fuel setups ( and other ideas put into practice as well).. from the very simple and cheap, to the very complex and costly.
    I had an old hippy truck driver as a customer that was very extreme with his ideas.... but his rig averaged almost 10 mpg year in , year out..... it smelled funny and was filthy, but was a mechanical masterpiece, imo.
    i didn't make any money off of them, i just passed on the information and the rewarded me with loyalty and future business...and that's all I really wanted anyways.

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    Re: CAFE standards for big rigs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    the helping hand comes in the form of putting technologies and products into hte market without a market demand for them.

    trucking manufacturers are like any other businesses, they really like to innovate... their engineers get all giddy with glee coming up with new stuff.
    the downside is, not all of their innovations are marketable... sometimes the market says " ta hell with that crap, I ain't paying for it.. it ain't worth it".

    so then a regulation comes down the pipe that mandates a certain standards that can be effectively met only with these developed technologies and products that the market would not previously accept.
    it's not a matter of government saying " you will buy this widget and you will like it".. it's a collaboration.
    the government says ' you gotta meet this standard", and the manufacturer say " awesome, i have this technology sitting ion the shelf that will do that".
    of course, we are then faced with the notion that the end user will purchase these products, with the additional technology, whether they like it or not....
    the regulation , in effect, creates a captured market that will overpay for the technology/products ( because they have no choice but to pay for the products, and the manufacturer will most definitely overcharge )

    gimme an hour with a truck driver and about 300 bucks worth of already existing products/technologies/knowledge, and i'll give you your additional 2 mpg average on his truck... but i'm not a manufacturer looking to make additional billions of dollars, so i don't really count for much in the grand scheme of things.
    You came the closest to explaining what helping hand the gov is giving but it still falls way short. If there is technology that can make engines more efficient and if these engines are dependable and affordable the trucking comps will buy them like hotcakes, fuel is number ONE expense for trucking comps. And they would be all over this. Sorry but I smell fish here.

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