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Thread: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

  1. #621
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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    I made the point i was shooting for though.
    What point would that be since you ignored the Tax Relief Act of 1997 when pointing out the 1998-2001 numbers. How can tax cuts grow govt revenue? Hmmm, isn't that the point Conservatives have been making for some time?

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    I made the point i was shooting for though.
    So when you said:

    Effectively balanced…with a tax increase.


    Sooo…looking at these numbers, explain your theory of “The Kennedy, Reagan and Bush tax cuts increased revenue to the treasury. “


    when in fact it was balanced with a TAX CUT...then you want an explaination 'on theory...tax cuts increased revenue'. What was your point? That you are a superior fallacious debater?

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    What point would that be since you ignored the Tax Relief Act of 1997 when pointing out the 1998-2001 numbers. How can tax cuts grow govt revenue? Hmmm, isn't that the point Conservatives have been making for some time?

    Maybe you should hit the sack early tonight.With a good nights sleep you MIGHT be able to figure out the point i made,then again...
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    Maybe you should hit the sack early tonight.With a good nights sleep you MIGHT be able to figure out the point i made,then again...
    Doesn't look like I am alone so like many other liberals here you are a legend in your own mind.

    Sooo…looking at these numbers, explain your theory of “The Kennedy, Reagan and Bush tax cuts increased revenue to the treasury. “

    when in fact it was balanced with a TAX CUT...then you want an explaination 'on theory...tax cuts increased revenue'. What was your point? That you are a superior fallacious debater?

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    I think we differ on the proportions. Right now I think we should be cutting a great deal more than we are taxing because spending has risen so dramatically in the last decade. I do indeed hold both parties responsible.
    Interesting. So you take a restorative approach, taking steps now to return the economy to where it was a decade ago.

    Well, in 2000, we had individual and corporate income tax revenue of $1.2T, or 12.2% of the $9.9T GDP. In 2009, we had income tax revenue of less than $1.1T, or 7.2% of the $14.1T GDP. So, under the restorative approach, we should have an across the board tax increase of 50% to return income taxes to the level they were when our budget was generally balanced.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You can get the information at BEA.gov, they get their data from the checkbook of the United States, Treasury Dept.

    Here is what BEA.gov shows for Federal Income Tax revenue by year

    2000 2202.8
    2001 2163.7
    2002 2002.1
    2003 2047.9
    2004 2213.2
    2005 2546.8
    2006 2807.4
    2007 2951.2
    2008 2790.3

    http://www.bea.gov/iTable/index_nipa.cfm
    Wrong numbers!

    You are mixing up your numbers once again, Cons. The numbers above are not Federal Income taxes by total receipts, including social security. We discussed this once before. Total federal income tax revenue has NEVER exceeded $1.5T, which it did in 2007. See table, Schedule 2.1 of the budget which is a table of actual receipts. The Income tax columns are highlighted as well as totaled on the far right.

    http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy10/hist.html

    Schedule 2.1 US Budget.jpg

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Are you saying that the Bush tax cuts for the middle class actually increased revenue?
    If he is saying that, he would be wrong.... especially given his numbers included payroll tax receipts, which did go up during the first decade of the century.

    Of course, if you look at actual federal income tax revenues, they dropped 19.2% after the Bush tax cut and then took 6 years to recover, growing at a much slower rate than the growth in GDP, as illustrated below:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by upsideguy; 12-31-11 at 02:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    Sooo …looking at these numbers, explain your theory of “The Kennedy, Reagan and Bush tax cuts increased revenue to the treasury.
    That isn't the theory though. The theory is that higher tax rates are not necessarily associated with any significantly higher revenues (as % of GDP). It wasn't tax hikes of the Clinton years that nearly balanced the budget.

    And anyway, capital gains taxes were diced during those years, which is how the very richest make all their money and enjoy lower effective tax rates than the rest of the productive class.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    If he is saying that, he would be wrong.... especially given his numbers included payroll tax receipts, which did go up during the first decade of the century.

    Of course, if you look at actual federal income tax revenues, they dropped 19.2% after the Bush tax cut and then took 6 years to recover, growing at a much slower rate than the growth in GDP, as illustrated below:
    you always have to tell part of the story and give half truths. I have to believe that you are here for distortion. The Bush tax cuts were in two phases, 2001 tax rebate was implemented the end of fiscal year 2001 and accellerated in July 2003. Further it seems like you don't remember 9/11/2001. How do you explain 2004-2007 with those tax cuts?

    Such passion you have for higher taxes, wonder why and please don't tell me it has to do with the deficit?

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    That isn't the theory though. The theory is that higher tax rates are not necessarily associated with any significantly higher revenues (as % of GDP). It wasn't tax hikes of the Clinton years that nearly balanced the budget.

    And anyway, capital gains taxes were diced during those years, which is how the very richest make all their money and enjoy lower effective tax rates than the rest of the productive class.
    Here is the basic math that liberals want the American people to ignore. Anyone believe raising the taxes on the rich will change this picture much?

    This rather brilliantly cuts thru all the political doublespeak we get. It puts it into a much better perspective.

    Lesson # 1:

    * U.S. Tax revenue: $2,170,000,000,000
    * Fed budget: $3,820,000,000,000
    * New debt: $ 1,650,000,000,000
    * National debt: $14,271,000,000,000
    * Recent budget cuts: $ 38,500,000,000


    Let's now remove 8 zeros and pretend it's a household budget:

    * Annual family income: $21,700
    * Money the family spent: $38,200
    * New debt on the credit card: $16,500
    * Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710
    * Total budget cuts: $385

    Got It ?????

    OK now Lesson # 2: Here's another way to look at the Debt Ceiling:

    Let's say, You come home from work and find there has been a sewer backup in your neighborhood....and your home has sewage all the way up to your ceilings.

    What do you think you should do ......

    Raise the ceilings, or pump out the crap?

    Your choice is coming Nov. 2012

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