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Thread: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    My latest post was about you, not Obama. You're ignoring that.
    Keep diverting, for that is all you can do

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Hate to break it to you, but we couldn't fix this deficit if we took every single penny from the top 1%.
    Hate to break it to you, but that is not an argument against raising taxes on those that have actually prospered in the downturn. No single action will cure the problem; it will take sacrifice across the board. A tax increase on the most prosperous of Americans will contribute to deficit reduction just as cutting government programs across the board, including defense will.

    Using the logic this move or that will not solve the problem by itself so we should not make such a move is a pretty silly argument.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 12-29-11 at 12:05 AM.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Hate to break it to you, but that is not an argument against raising taxes on those that have actually prospered in the downturn. No single action will cure the problem; it will take sacrifice across the board. A tax increase on the most prosperous of Americans will contribute to deficit reduction just as cutting government programs across the board, including defense will.

    Using the logic this move or that will not solve the problem by itself so we should not make such a move is a pretty silly argument.
    Hate to break THIS to you, but I was replying to this comment:

    Oh ****, the top 1% will have slightly less money if we raise taxes enough to fix the deficit! Oh, the horror!
    So yes, the poster I was replying to stated that the deficit could be erased if we only taxed the top 1% more.

    That 's what happens when you jump into a conversation without reading the context first.

    By the way, do you have proof that the top 1% has prospered and have more income now than they did 5 years ago?
    Last edited by Gill; 12-29-11 at 09:10 AM.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Keep diverting, for that is all you can do
    No, you're diverting.

    I am here to tell you to stop equating ideology with truth, or honesty, or any of that other stuff. It's not. That's all that needs to be said. If the message doesn't sink in, that's your problem.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    Then explain to me how taxes went up when Clinton raised taxes during his term. Don't give me the dotcom bubble bull****.
    Because the economy was still strong enough to handle it. At the end of the Clinton years (1998 & 1999) we slipped into a recession...a minor one but one none the less. At that point, taxes should have been cut to boost the economy.

    The Bush cuts were across the board and well needed...the problem was that they didnt raise taxes later in his term to control the inevitable market correction.

    Where Obama is making a HUGE mistake is not doing what Reagan did and slashing taxes to jumpstart the economy....he and the Democrats believe that government spending and higher taxes will do it and that just isnt historically true.
    Know the truth and the truth will make you mad, because the truth has no agenda.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Imnukingfutz

    Because the economy was still strong enough to handle it. At the end of the Clinton years (1998 & 1999) we slipped into a recession...a minor one but one none the less. At that point, taxes should have been cut to boost the economy.
    Keep up; Clinton raised taxes in 1993 and a couple of months later the revenues started going up. I posted a graph which evidently you missed.



    The Bush cuts were across the board and well needed...the problem was that they didn’t raise taxes later in his term to control the inevitable market correction.
    The bush tax cuts were boneheaded because they were put into effect when we were at war.UNFUNDED. Compounding the boneheaded move was putting in place Medicare plan D (prescription drugs), which also was... UNFUNDED.Geeez...bush was left a surplus and he headed our country straight into the ditch were digging ourselves out of now.



    Where Obama is making a HUGE mistake is not doing what Reagan did and slashing taxes to jumpstart the economy....
    Kinda hard to slash taxes when we have a big ass deficit isn’t it? with that $ trillion dollar elephant in the room cutting taxes doesn’t increase revenue. with this big ass deficit we need to see revenue going up not down.

    SSooo… it stands to reason that those that made the most dough for the last decade and got the most benefit of the bush tax-cuts should be the ones that should tote the biggest part of the load .Our current tax level is the lowest its been since 1958 and with all the loopholes/ tax breaks the CORP tax-rate is now the second lowest as share of GDP of developed countries. Let the Verizons, Boeing and General Electric cough up a few quid in taxes for a change.
    Last edited by Donc; 12-29-11 at 02:56 PM.
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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    All I ever see from you is diversion and don't blame you for you cannot defend the facts that I have posted. The Obama results are there for all to see. Why are you ignoring them? Facts are verifiable and come from non partisan sites, not economists, CBO projections, or op ed pieces. I welcome the challenge to the facts presented.

    Are there more or less employed today than when Obama took office?
    Is the civilian labor force higher or lower than when Obama took office
    Is the unemployment higher or lower than it was when Obama took office?
    Is the misery indext higher or lower today than when Obama took office?
    Has there been 4.5 trillion added to the debt since Obama took office?
    Were there 1.1 million discouraged workers that weren't counted last month in the unemployment number?
    Is the GDP higher or loser this year vs. last year?
    Did 315,000 drop out of the labor force last month?
    Are there 24 million unemployed/under employed Americans in November 2011 and is that higher or lower than when Obama took office?

    Aw, so many questions and yet you and others run from the answers.
    First, no one is "running from the answers"... you have been answered over and over, but you have the listening skills of Helen Keller (if I can be politically incorrect for a moment to drive home a point). You are not interested in, nor do you respect, any opinion that is contrary to your own. I suggest it is you that runs from the answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I have posted the Obama results over and over again only to be ignored just like you are doing now. Guess it is easier diverting from those results vs. addressing them.
    Yes, you have posted the same thing over and over and over and over and over (did I forget an over or two?) again. Again, what you insist are facts are just opinions. Your "facts" get diluted (or should I say deluded) when you insist on assigning "blame" to Obama for the facts. I do not deny you have an argument, but an argument is an opinion, not a fact.

    Let's take one of your favorite items: the increase in the federal debt since Obama took office.

    It is a fact that the debt was, according to the US Treasury, $10.6T on January 31, 2009 and $14.8T on September 30, 2011. Each are verifiable facts (Government - Welcome to the Government Section of TreasuryDirect). The change in the debt during that period can be objectively derived from those facts by calculation ($14.8 - $10.6 = $4.2)....

    FACT: 1) Debt was $10.6T at 1/31/2009; 2) Debt is $14.8T at 9/30/2011; and 3) Debt increased by $4.2T between January 2009 and September 2011.
    FACT: 1) Obama became President in January 2009 and Obama served continuously as President through September 2011.

    Compound fact derived from logic: The Debt rose $4.2T during the first 2.7 years of the Obama Administration. Your assertion above is close to this; objective, but with a bias, suggesting the one fact is relevant to the other (there is a suggestion of correlation or even causation)

    Opinion: Your continued suggestion that the $4.2T increase in debt was Obama's fault. The debt increased $3.94B on his first day in office. Was that his fault? Will the next Republican to take office be accountable for the increase in the debt on his first day, first week, first month, first budget (that he did not begin)? I don't think so. The fact is the debt increased. Who is responsible for this increase in debt is a matter of opinion.

    YOUR OPINIONS:

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    As has been posted over and over again, anyone worried about deficits cannot be an Obama supporter. Obama will amass in a little over 3 years as much debt as Bush did in 8 but your ideology will not allow you to admit or accept that. Absolutely amazing how brainwashed liberals are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    What a disengenuous argument as if Republican debt is worse than Democrat debt. Further what you ignore is that Republicans created that debt over 20 years, Democrats created more debt on a per year basis over 11 years.


    GW Bush-8 years, 4.9 trillion dollars
    Obama-3 years, 4.5 trillion dollars.

    At the end of Obama's first term what do you believe his debt is going to be?
    You do realize our National debt is going to $20T during the next administration regardless of who is elected in November?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Last I checked a 1/2 trillion deficit is less than trillion dollar deficits of Obama and in addition the 4.9 trillion dollars in 8 years is less per year than the 4.5 trillion in three years. Liberal economic policies suck
    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    As usual, nothing to do with the thread topic and no answer to the disastrous debt created by "your" President. The current debt now exceeds our yearly GDP and another four years will make that debt over 20 trillion dollars. I look forward to you sending in your share of that debt since I am sure you want to support "your" President by paying your fair share.
    Yes, you are constantly admonishing people for ignoring "the facts". What we are ignoring is your tired OPINION has been repeatedly set forth and quite clear. Many of us remember other facts; like the last Republican Administration took an essentially balanced budget (extremely modest annual deficits) and ran up huge annual deficits (of $1T annually) through a variety of boneheaded moves including starting two wars (which cost from $1 to $3T), while cutting taxes and then delivering to his successor an economy in very, very deep recession. Some of us thing the economic policies of the other party are ill thought out and very dangerous, with that hypothesis well proven by 8 years of the previous president.

    Sorry, but your continued mantra adds nothing new to the debate; in fact, it is increasingly unconvincing as it is boorish. I appreciate the fact that Fox News has great success saying something enough times that people take it as fact, but most of us on this board are smarter than that. Telling people they are idiots for not seeing the world as you do is, in fact, a form of idiocy. Don't be the guy.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 12-30-11 at 03:18 AM.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    Keep up; Clinton raised taxes in 1993 and a couple of months later the revenues started going up. I posted a graph which evidently you missed.
    Ummm...thats why I said the economy was strong enough to handle it...read my other posts in this thread so you might catch onto the meaning of that statement.



    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    The bush tax cuts were boneheaded because they were put into effect when we were at war.UNFUNDED. Compounding the boneheaded move was putting in place Medicare plan D (prescription drugs), which also was... UNFUNDED.Geeez...bush was left a surplus and he headed our country straight into the ditch were digging ourselves out of now.
    Please take an economic 101 class. You lower spending ( and taxes) when things are tough and you increase spending (and taxes) when the economy is growing.

    With this stupid, complex, asinine progressive tax system we have the rates can not stay stagnant, they must always be in a state of flux.

    And as far as the debt goes....tell this Congress and President to stop spending. In the past 3 years they have outspent the previous drunk spenders from their 8 year spending spree.


    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    Kinda hard to slash taxes when we have a big ass deficit isn’t it? with that $ trillion dollar elephant in the room cutting taxes doesn’t increase revenue. with this big ass deficit we need to see revenue going up not down.
    As proven by IRS & Treasury data, when taxes are lowered the following years sees increases in revenue. It is a cycle. What is wrong now is that the government is trying to micromanage that cycle and they are screwing it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
    SSooo… it stands to reason that those that made the most dough for the last decade and got the most benefit of the bush tax-cuts should be the ones that should tote the biggest part of the load .Our current tax level is the lowest its been since 1958 and with all the loopholes/ tax breaks the CORP tax-rate is now the second lowest as share of GDP of developed countries. Let the Verizons, Boeing and General Electric cough up a few quid in taxes for a change.
    I dont mean this the wrong way but you dont have a clue. Im sorry.
    Know the truth and the truth will make you mad, because the truth has no agenda.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    upsideguy;1060068443]First, no one is "running from the answers"... you have been answered over and over, but you have the listening skills of Helen Keller (if I can be politically incorrect for a moment to drive home a point). You are not interested in, nor do you respect, any opinion that is contrary to your own. I suggest it is you that runs from the answers.
    The problem is that is all it is, your opinion. I get my information from non partisan sites like Bureau of economic analysis, Bureau of Labor Statistics, U.S. Census Bureau, and then even the media that you have access to. I respect opinions based upon logic, common sense, and facts. no facts have been presented to refute what I have posted from those non partisan sites.

    Yes, you have posted the same thing over and over and over and over and over (did I forget an over or two?) again. Again, what you insist are facts are just opinions. Your "facts" get diluted (or should I say deluded) when you insist on assigning "blame" to Obama for the facts. I do not deny you have an argument, but an argument is an opinion, not a fact.
    But an argument backed by data, non partisan factual data, is indeed fact. I have even offered information that led to that data but you ignored it.

    Let's take one of your favorite items: the increase in the federal debt since Obama took office.

    It is a fact that the debt was, according to the US Treasury, $10.6T on January 31, 2009 and $14.8T on September 30, 2011. Each are verifiable facts (Government - Welcome to the Government Section of TreasuryDirect). The change in the debt during that period can be objectively derived from those facts by calculation ($14.8 - $10.6 = $4.2)..


    FACT: 1) Debt was $10.6T at 1/31/2009; 2) Debt is $14.8T at 9/30/2011; and 3) Debt increased by $4.2T between January 2009 and September 2011.
    FACT: 1) Obama became President in January 2009 and Obama served continuously as President through September 2011.

    Compound fact derived from logic: The Debt rose $4.2T during the first 2.7 years of the Obama Administration. Your assertion above is close to this; objective, but with a bias, suggesting the one fact is relevant to the other (there is a suggestion of correlation or even causation)


    Opinion: Your continued suggestion that the $4.2T increase in debt was Obama's fault. The debt increased $3.94B on his first day in office. Was that his fault? Will the next Republican to take office be accountable for the increase in the debt on his first day, first week, first month, first budget (that he did not begin)? I don't think so. The fact is the debt increased. Who is responsible for this increase in debt is a matter of opinion.
    What you want to ignore is the information that went into that debt including TARP which was a LOAN not an expense that wouldn't be paid back. It was paid back except for GM/Chrylser and Fredding and Fannie but somehow that escapes you. Where did the money go for that repayment and why would that repayment not be used to credit what you claim is the Bush deficit?

    Further where is the cost of the Stimulus program in the 2009 deficit and why is that charged to Bush? Where is the cost of the GM/Chrysler takeover and why is that charged to Bush? Where is the cost of the Afghanistan supplementals and why is that charged to Bush? Where are the charges from the Obama Department heads that spend the money from january 21. 2009 to the end of fiscal year 2009 and why is that charged to Bush? Obama had other supplementals passed in 2009 but all those you believe are Bush's. Further who controlled the budget process, Republicans or Democrats for fiscal year 2009


    You do realize our National debt is going to $20T during the next administration regardless of who is elected in November?
    That is your opinion, you don't cut the deficit by increasing the budget and not cutting anything. Obama has spent about 3.7 trillion dollars a year since taking office which is 600 billion a year more than the last Bush budget 2008(budget without TARP/Stimulus/GM Takeover/Afghanistan supplementals. It won't increase if actual spending is cut and Democrats buy votes with that spending thus won't do it.


    Yes, you are constantly admonishing people for ignoring "the facts". What we are ignoring is your tired OPINION has been repeatedly set forth and quite clear. Many of us remember other facts; like the last Republican Administration took an essentially balanced budget (extremely modest annual deficits) and ran up huge annual deficits (of $1T annually) through a variety of boneheaded moves including starting two wars (which cost from $1 to $3T), while cutting taxes and then delivering to his successor an economy in very, very deep recession. Some of us thing the economic policies of the other party are ill thought out and very dangerous, with that hypothesis well proven by 8 years of the previous president.
    Tired opinion to you is anything that refutes what you believe. Many of you buy what you are told and ignore reality. you really need to take a basic civics course so you understand who controls the purse strings. Democrats controlled those purse strings from January 2007 to January 2011. Republicans controlled them from January 1994 to the end of the Clinton Administration. You also need to understand that the tax cuts were passed prior to the wars beginning but of course that isn't a fact that you want to acknowledge, just like you don't want to acknowledge that the American taxpayers need the money more than the Federal Govt.

    I find it interesting that you and other ideologues talk about facts then offer your opinion void of facts. Obama helped create what he says he inherited but what you want to ignore is that the country was coming out of recession when he took office, the recession ended in June 2009 so what economic policy was in place that ended that recession and if the recession is over why is economic growth so much lower this year than last?

    Civics isn't your strong suit but you certainly have been brainwashed by rhetoric.

    Sorry, but your continued mantra adds nothing new to the debate; in fact, it is increasingly unconvincing as it is boorish. I appreciate the fact that Fox News has great success saying something enough times that people take it as fact, but most of us on this board are smarter than that. Telling people they are idiots for not seeing the world as you do is, in fact, a form of idiocy. Don't be the guy.
    My continued mantra as you call it confuses you with facts, facts that fly in the face of what your believe or have been told. Stop thinking with your heart and do some actual research. When challenged with non partisan data I am charged with getting that information from Fox News. Noticed that neither you or anyone else has refuted the data I have listed and in fact you agreed with the debt number. Now find out what data went into that debt number?

    I have see no evidence that many of the Obama supporters on this board are smart at all. They buy rhetoric and the great energy and appearance of this President who seems like a nice guy but is in way over his head. he is totally and completely incompetent when it comes to leadership or maybe he isn't and is doing exactly what he wants, converting this to a European style socialist model that has failed. Liberal arrogance refuses to acknowledge that.

  10. #610
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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    Ummm...thats why I said the economy was strong enough to handle it...read my other posts in this thread so you might catch onto the meaning of that statement.





    Please take an economic 101 class. You lower spending ( and taxes) when things are tough and you increase spending (and taxes) when the economy is growing.

    With this stupid, complex, asinine progressive tax system we have the rates can not stay stagnant, they must always be in a state of flux.

    And as far as the debt goes....tell this Congress and President to stop spending. In the past 3 years they have outspent the previous drunk spenders from their 8 year spending spree.




    As proven by IRS & Treasury data, when taxes are lowered the following years sees increases in revenue. It is a cycle. What is wrong now is that the government is trying to micromanage that cycle and they are screwing it up.



    I dont mean this the wrong way but you dont have a clue. Im sorry.

    Did you not say in post #565 the following?” The Kennedy, Reagan and Bush tax cuts increased revenue to the treasury. “

    To which I replied with a graph, which showed that, wasn’t the case with Clinton; who raised taxes in 1993, and the economy took off shortly thereafter. Your statement about the Clinton tax increase that “the economy was strong enough to handle it” kinda makes me wonder, when you consider the state of the economy at the time.



    10 million unemployed, record deficits, poverty and welfare rolls growing, incomes losing ground to inflation, jobs were being created at the slowest rate since the Great Depression. Looks like a microseism of what we are now facing doesn’t it?
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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