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Thread: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    The economy would have grown IMO even without the tax cuts due to the massive increases in government spending that were enacted during the Bush Administration.
    The government spending more likely reduced the amount the economy grew. When the government takes a dollar from a productive person they take their cut (a bit like the mob) before giving 80 cents of it to someone who is unproductive.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    As you wish. Let's see what the next election brings. Will voters demand socialism or freedom?
    It depends upon how you define the words - Socialism and Freedom - I don't find them mutually exclusive. In fact a certain amount of what you might call socialism has been woven into the fabric of our nation since it's founding. President George Washington helped the poor people of DC.

    See ya, Wed Nov. 7, 2012.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    The government spending more likely reduced the amount the economy grew. When the government takes a dollar from a productive person they take their cut (a bit like the mob) before giving 80 cents of it to someone who is unproductive.
    Looking at the budget deficit, it's more like they give out $1.20 for every dollar they take in. The right doesn't understand simple arithmetic
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    My link works fine but you are right in one regard and I apologize, using bea.gov does provide payroll taxes into the total personal taxes, however the budget of the United States shows the follwing in tax revenue AFTER the Bush tax cuts and doesn't include payroll taxes.

    The last I checked, Individual Income taxes went from 808.9 billion dollars to 1.145 trillion dollars in 2007(an Increase) which is the time AFTER the Bush tax cuts were fully implemented. Note the line item for revenue and not the SS line item. I suggest sir that you are posting worthless information that is not only off topic but totally irrelevant today.

    Receipt 2008 2007 2006 2005 Fiscal 2004 Fiscal 2003

    Individual Income tax 915.3 1,145.7 1,043.9 927.2 808.9 793.7
    Corporate Taxes 138.2 304.3 353.9 278.3 189.4 131.8

    Total 1,053.5 1,450.0 1,397.8 1205.5 998.3 925.5

    SS/Unemploy/Other 848.9 900.0 837.8 869.6 733.4 712.9

    Excise Taxes 62.5 67.3 73.9 73.1 69.9 67.5
    Cool! Now that we agree on numbers, we can have a meaningful argument over their interpretation.

    The problem I have with your view of this is that you conveniently started at 2003, with the low point of individual income tax collections. Of course, revenues are going to rise from the low point. The problem is that you ignore the 20% drop in individual income tax collections from the point that the tax cut was enacted (2001) until 2003.

    The so-called Bush Tax cuts were enacted and signed into law on June 7, 2001. Some provisions were phased in, but much of it took place immediately, including the idea "rebates" or advances on refunds. Nonetheless, there was a substantial impact on FY 2002.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economi...on_Act_of_2001

    In 2002, tax collections were $858B individual and $148B corporate. That was the first year effect.... but we need a baseline, when this started. In 2001 (a recessed year), tax collections were $994B individual and $151B corporate. Hence, income tax collections after the Bush tax cuts were enacted FELL by $220B or 19.2% from a total of $1,145B (or $1.15T in 2001) to $925B in 2003 , yet GDP actually rose 5% during this time frame. In fact, it took 4 years (until 2005) before income tax revenues returned to 2001 levels. During this time, GDP rose 23% from $10.2T to $12.5T, so clearly income tax revenue as a function of GDP fell.

    Sorry, but the Bush tax cuts cut taxes (and tax revenue)
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    Last edited by upsideguy; 09-05-11 at 03:27 PM.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Cool! Now that we agree on numbers, we can have a meaningful argument over their interpretation.

    The problem I have with your view of this is that you conveniently started at 2003, with the low point of individual income tax collections. Of course, revenues are going to rise from the low point. The problem is that you ignore the 20% drop in individual income tax collections from the point that the tax cut was enacted (2001) until 2003.

    The so-called Bush Tax cuts were enacted and signed into law on June 7, 2001. Some provisions were phased in, but much of it took place immediately, including the idea "rebates" or advances on refunds. Nonetheless, there was a substantial impact on FY 2002.

    Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In 2002, tax collections were $858B individual and $148B corporate. That was the first year effect.... but we need a baseline, when this started. In 2001 (a recessed year), tax collections were $994B individual and $151B corporate. Hence, income tax collections after the Bush tax cuts were enacted FELL by $220B or 19.2% from a total of $1,145B (or $1.15T in 2001) to $925B in 2003 , yet GDP actually rose 5% during this time frame. In fact, it took 4 years (until 2005) before income tax revenues returned to 2001 levels. During this time, GDP rose 23% from $10.2T to $12.5T, so clearly income tax revenue as a function of GDP fell.

    Sorry, but the Bush tax cuts cut taxes (and tax revenue)
    Not sure how looking backwards provides any excuses for what is going on right now but the Bush tax cuts started at the end of fiscal year 2001 which ran from October 1, 2000 to Sept. 30,2001 as they were passed in June as pointed out but the first phase wasn't completed until the end of the year. The economy in 2002 was hurt by 9/11 which began in October 2001 and ended in Sept 2002. Bush was dealing with a Democrat controlled Senate. the GOP took over the Congress in the fall of 2002 and in 2003 passed the rest of the Bush tax cuts that actually benefited 2004-2007 economic policy and govt. revenue. Now regardless we can argue this until hell freezes over but what does that have to do with the results generated by the Democrat Congress from January 2007-January 2011? The results today are there for all to see.

    Obama economic results in 2011, .4% GDP and 1% GDP growth in 2011, 25+ million unemployed or under employed Americans in 2011, 4 trillion added to the debt in less than 3 years, and a downgrade of the U.S. credit rating. Rising Misery index 7.83 to 12.67. 38-41% JAR and well over 50-55% disapproval ratings.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Not sure how looking backwards provides any excuses for what is going on right now .
    Well, that makes one of you
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Well, that makes one of you
    Personal income taxes by year

    Individual Income tax

    2010 898.5
    2009 915.3
    2008 1,145.7
    2007 1,163.7
    2006 1,043.9
    2005 927.2
    2004 808.9
    2003 793.7

    U.S. Treasury

    Current Report: Combined Statement of Receipts, Outlays, and Balances of the United States Government (Combined Statement): Publications & Guidance: Financial Management Service

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Polly wanna cracker?

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    It depends upon how you define the words - Socialism and Freedom - I don't find them mutually exclusive. In fact a certain amount of what you might call socialism has been woven into the fabric of our nation since it's founding. President George Washington helped the poor people of DC.

    See ya, Wed Nov. 7, 2012.
    Of course you don't find them mutually exclusive.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Looking at the budget deficit, it's more like they give out $1.20 for every dollar they take in. The right doesn't understand simple arithmetic
    Perhaps the difference is in the borrowing and in the printing and not so much in the collection.

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