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Thread: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Government spending will always increase during economic contraction, and will continue to swell until labor markets begin to stabilize. Being angry about it accomplishes nothing.
    Oh, I don't know. Being angry about out of controls spending generated enough interest in voters other than the felons, dead and illegals that Republicans regained the house of representatives. They also reversed the politics in about half of the states (from memory between 1/3rd and 40%)

    People are not longer talking about unrestrained spending. Being angry accomplished a great deal. Let us hope the voters continue to be angry.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    The Bush Tax cuts for all taxpayers led to economic growth that increased govt. revenue
    No, it's the interest rate that triggered the economic at that time. When Clinton left the
    W.H. the Federal benchmark interest rate was 6.5%. In Bush's term, the rate drammatically dropped to 1%, (in 2003 to 2004) It's the low interest rate that pushes up the economy. You could see the result from your chart that the Federal income tax started going up from 2003, 2004. but it also created a big bubble - the housing bubble. That bubble broke out in 2007, (You could see it's the peak of income tax revenue). It also caused the financial crisis next year.

    Real estate industry is an important factor of GDP. The housing bubble is still hurting the economy right now. Even now they low the interest rate to nearly zero, they can't recover the housing industry. (Because of piled up fore-closured houses from that bubble)

    It's evident that Bush created the housing bubble that damaged the US economy. That bubble is still there, continuely erode the economy. Bush's tax cut law and the war he started increased budget deficit that caused debt problem. It's ridiculous to cover up his failed policy by these fallacy.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by katsung47 View Post
    No, it's the interest rate that triggered the economic at that time. When Clinton left the
    W.H. the Federal benchmark interest rate was 6.5%. In Bush's term, the rate drammatically dropped to 1%, (in 2003 to 2004) It's the low interest rate that pushes up the economy. You could see the result from your chart that the Federal income tax started going up from 2003, 2004. but it also created a big bubble - the housing bubble. That bubble broke out in 2007, (You could see it's the peak of income tax revenue). It also caused the financial crisis next year.

    Real estate industry is an important factor of GDP. The housing bubble is still hurting the economy right now. Even now they low the interest rate to nearly zero, they can't recover the housing industry. (Because of piled up fore-closured houses from that bubble)

    It's evident that Bush created the housing bubble that damaged the US economy. That bubble is still there, continuely erode the economy. Bush's tax cut law and the war he started increased budget deficit that caused debt problem. It's ridiculous to cover up his failed policy by these fallacy.
    You are going to believe what you want to believe no matter how wrong you are. Please feel free to put the Bush actual numbers vs. the Obama numbers. stop buying what the media tells you as they make you look and sound foolish. Too many people have a lot invested in their Bush Derangement Syndrome so you fit into that category. We are now paying for that mental condition.

    Obama economic results in 2011, .4% GDP and 1% GDP growth in 2011, 25+ million unemployed or under employed Americans in 2011, 4 trillion added to the debt in less than 3 years, and a downgrade of the U.S. credit rating. Rising Misery index 7.83 to 12.67. First President in U.S. History to have our credit downgraded on his watch! 38-41% JAR and well over 50-55% disapproval ratings.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You can get the information at BEA.gov, they get their data from the checkbook of the United States, Treasury Dept.

    Here is what BEA.gov shows for Federal Income Tax revenue by year

    2000 2202.8
    2001 2163.7
    2002 2002.1
    2003 2047.9
    2004 2213.2
    2005 2546.8
    2006 2807.4
    2007 2951.2
    2008 2790.3

    http://www.bea.gov/iTable/index_nipa.cfm
    You are still posting these numbers. Rest assured they are not income tax revenues, as individual + corporate income tax revenues have never exceeded $1.5T. If you numbers were correct, then we really do not have a deficit. Thanks for the link. Standby while I get to the root of your delusion, but the numbers you post are not correct.

    Allow me to repost my answer to this posted on another thread (to which you did not respond) as I try to figure out where you are coming up with your numbers.....

    I said Federal Revenues include payroll taxes (such as FICA), not federal income tax. It is federal revenues that exceed $2T annually... and it is federal revenue that increased after the Bush tax cuts. This is because the increase in payroll taxes masked the decrease in income tax revenue.

    If we just speak of income taxes... individual income tax revenue has NEVER exceeded $1.2T. In fact, contrary to your assertion, they decreased by 20% after the Bush tax cuts (um, cut taxes, you expect to cut tax revenue.... it worked well.) Individual income tax revenues fell from just north of $1T in 2000 to less than $.8T four years later.. a 20% drop (NOT an increase, as you continually state) Even if you threw corporate income taxes, federal income tax revenue never exceeds $1.5T... about 1/2 of what you are telling us you get from "bea.gov". Your numbers are NOT correct.

    You asked where I got my numbers. Unlike you, I actually gave you a link to the actual budget and its tables (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy10/pdf/hist.pdf).
    I directed you to table 2.1, where, if you bothered to follow my link you would have 1) not asked where the numbers came from, 2) not challenged me as to whether I actually have looked at the budget since that is exactly what is at the other end of the link and 3) you would have seen actual Individual Income Tax Revenue, Corporate Income Tax Revenue, Excise Tax Revenue and Social Insurance and Retirement receipts (various payroll taxes), etc.... all of the components of Federal Revenue, year by year since 1934. You will note that Federal Revenue, all in, never exceeded $2.568T....yet, your numbers are larger (you cited $2.79T per BEA.gov for 2008) That can not be.

    Let's try another (in)sanity check on your numbers. You often speak of the $3.8T cost of government (2009). My numbers (from table 3.1 of the budget, see link) confirm this.... but this spending includes disbursements for social security. So, if you are stating that income tax revenue is $2.79T, and total expenditures are $3.9T (2009), then the deficit is but $1T.... but wait, the expenditures income spending on social security (see table 3.1) and your revenues do not (as you state they are federal income tax revenues)... so, to make apples be apples, we need to add the $.9T the government received from Social Insurance and Retirement receipts (see table 2.1) and our total revenues for 2008 are now, according to your intrepretation of BEA numbers are now $3.7T ($2.79T federal income tax + $.9T payroll tax). Let's see, $3.7T revenue versus $3.9T expenditures (forgive mixing 2009 and 2008), so our deficit, according to your BEA numbers is just $200B. Either you have solved our deficit problem while the rest of us are busy fussing about it, or (I think a bit more likely) your federal income tax revenue numbers are not correct and thus do not support your argument.

    If its a BLS table you want, try this one: http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_408.htm. You will note that 2008 personal income tax revenue was only $1.1239T, consistent with the budget.
    .


    Thanks for the link. As a professional numbers guy, I should be able to find where you went astray and get you on path.... including never again trying to tell us that the Bush tax cuts increased federal income tax revenue.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 09-03-11 at 10:01 PM.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    You are still posting these numbers. Rest assured they are not income tax revenues, as they have never exceeded $1.9T. If you numbers were correct, then we really do not have a deficit. Thanks for the link. Standby while I get to the root of your delusion, but the numbers you post are not correct.

    Allow me to repost my answer to this posted on another thread (to which you did not respond) as I try to figure out where you are coming up with your numbers.....

    I said Federal Revenues include payroll taxes (such as FICA), not federal income tax. It is federal revenues that exceed $2T annually... and it is federal revenue that increased after the Bush tax cuts. This is because the increase in payroll taxes masked the decrease in income tax revenue.

    f we just speak of income taxes... individual income tax revenue has NEVER exceeded $1.2T. In fact, contrary to your assertion, they decreased by 20% after the Bush tax cuts (um, cut taxes, you expect to cut tax revenue.... it worked well.) Individual income tax revenues fell from just north of $1T in 2000 to less than $.8T four years later.. a 20% drop (NOT an increase, as you continually state) Even if you threw corporate income taxes, federal income tax revenue never exceeds $1.5T... about 1/2 of what you are telling us you get from "bea.gov". Your numbers are NOT correct.

    You asked where I got my numbers. Unlike you, I actually gave you a link to the actual budget and its tables (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy10/pdf/hist.pdf).
    I directed you to table 2.1, where, if you bothered to follow my link you would have 1) not asked where the numbers came from, 2) not challenged me as to whether I actually have looked at the budget since that is exactly what is at the other end of the link and 3) you would have seen actual Individual Income Tax Revenue, Corporate Income Tax Revenue, Excise Tax Revenue and Social Insurance and Retirement receipts (various payroll taxes), etc.... all of the components of Federal Revenue, year by year since 1934. You will note that Federal Revenue, all in, never exceeded $2.568T....yet, your numbers are larger (you cited $2.79T per BEA.gov for 2008) That can not be.

    Let's try another (in)sanity check on your numbers. You often speak of the $3.8T cost of government (2009). My numbers (from table 3.1 of the budget, see link) confirm this.... but this spending includes disbursements for social security. So, if you are stating that income tax revenue is $2.79T, and total expenditures are $3.9T (2009), then the deficit is but $1T.... but wait, the expenditures income spending on social security (see table 3.1) and your revenues do not (as you state they are federal income tax revenues)... so, to make apples be apples, we need to add the $.9T the government received from Social Insurance and Retirement receipts (see table 2.1) and our total revenues for 2008 are now, according to your intrepretation of BEA numbers are now $3.7T ($2.79T federal income tax + $.9T payroll tax). Let's see, $3.7T revenue versus $3.9T expenditures (forgive mixing 2009 and 2008), so our deficit, according to your BEA numbers is just $200B. Either you have solved our deficit problem while the rest of us are busy fussing about it, or (I think a bit more likely) your federal income tax revenue numbers are not correct and thus do not support your argument.

    As a professional numbers guy, with a posted link to the actual table at BEA.gov from which you extracted, derived or otherwise created your numbers, I might be able to help you with the reconciliation.
    Love your novels, now get the facts by looking at the budgets of the United States. Line item expenses are Personal Income Taxes, SOCIAL SECURITY(which includes Medicare), Corporate taxes, and Excise Taxes. Love experts like you who have never looked at the budget of the United States.

    Example

    Receipt 2010

    Individual Income tax 898.5
    Corporate Taxes 191.4

    Total 1089.9

    SS/Unemploy/Other 864.8

    Excise Taxes 66.9

    U.S. Treasury

    Current Report: Combined Statement of Receipts, Outlays, and Balances of the United States Government (Combined Statement): Publications & Guidance: Financial Management Service

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You are going to believe what you want to believe no matter how wrong you are. Please feel free to put the Bush actual numbers vs. the Obama numbers. stop buying what the media tells you as they make you look and sound foolish. Too many people have a lot invested in their Bush Derangement Syndrome so you fit into that category. We are now paying for that mental condition.

    Obama economic results in 2011, .4% GDP and 1% GDP growth in 2011, 25+ million unemployed or under employed Americans in 2011, 4 trillion added to the debt in less than 3 years, and a downgrade of the U.S. credit rating. Rising Misery index 7.83 to 12.67. First President in U.S. History to have our credit downgraded on his watch! 38-41% JAR and well over 50-55% disapproval ratings.
    Polly wants a cracker!
    Polly wants a cracker!
    squawk!
    Polly wants a cracker!
    Polly wants a cracker!
    squawk!

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Oh, I don't know. Being angry about out of controls spending generated enough interest in voters other than the felons, dead and illegals that Republicans regained the house of representatives. They also reversed the politics in about half of the states (from memory between 1/3rd and 40%)

    People are not longer talking about unrestrained spending. Being angry accomplished a great deal. Let us hope the voters continue to be angry.
    Voters don't care about spending or the debt. They just don't.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Love your novels, now get the facts by looking at the budgets of the United States. Line item expenses are Personal Income Taxes, SOCIAL SECURITY(which includes Medicare), Corporate taxes, and Excise Taxes. Love experts like you who have never looked at the budget of the United States.

    Example

    Receipt 2010

    Individual Income tax 898.5
    Corporate Taxes 191.4

    Total 1089.9

    SS/Unemploy/Other 864.8

    Excise Taxes 66.9

    U.S. Treasury

    Current Report: Combined Statement of Receipts, Outlays, and Balances of the United States Government (Combined Statement): Publications & Guidance: Financial Management Service
    I think we need to go to a private room as you are starting to embarrass yourself.

    First off, your link does not work. Second, you are now telling me that individual and corporate income taxes are $1.1T for 2010, which is completely consistent with what I have been saying (they never exceeded $1.5T ... they peaked in 2007). Had you followed my link (which did work, BTW), you would actually see the THE BUDGET (which you claim I never looked at, but that would be refuted had you actually followed the link)

    OK, so you have confirmed my numbers as I continue to try to figure out where the h'll you are getting you numbers from. Again, I am saying that federal income taxes never exceeded $1.5T, which they did in 2007. You, OTH, have this notion that they are clise to $3T (almost 2.5X, what is in the budget).....

    I can only conclude, sir, that it is in fact you that has never read the budget.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 09-03-11 at 10:34 PM.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    I think we need to go to a private room as you are starting to embarrass yourself.

    First off, your link does not work. Second, you are now telling me that individual and corporate income taxes are $1.1T for 2010, which is completely consistent with what I have been saying (they never exceeded $1.5T ... they peaked in 2007)... which, BTW, is right from table 2.1 of THE BUDGET, which you claim I have never looked at, yet repeatedly quote from and post. Great, now you have confirmed my numbers.... where on earth do you get the federal income tax numbers you keep quoting, which are close to $3T (almost 2.5X, what is in the budget).....

    I suggest to you, sir, that you have never read the budget.
    My link works fine but you are right in one regard and I apologize, using bea.gov does provide payroll taxes into the total personal taxes, however the budget of the United States shows the follwing in tax revenue AFTER the Bush tax cuts and doesn't include payroll taxes.

    The last I checked, Individual Income taxes went from 808.9 billion dollars to 1.145 trillion dollars in 2007(an Increase) which is the time AFTER the Bush tax cuts were fully implemented. Note the line item for revenue and not the SS line item. I suggest sir that you are posting worthless information that is not only off topic but totally irrelevant today.

    Receipt 2008 2007 2006 2005 Fiscal 2004 Fiscal 2003

    Individual Income tax 915.3 1,145.7 1,043.9 927.2 808.9 793.7
    Corporate Taxes 138.2 304.3 353.9 278.3 189.4 131.8

    Total 1,053.5 1,450.0 1,397.8 1205.5 998.3 925.5

    SS/Unemploy/Other 848.9 900.0 837.8 869.6 733.4 712.9

    Excise Taxes 62.5 67.3 73.9 73.1 69.9 67.5
    Last edited by Conservative; 09-03-11 at 10:35 PM.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Voters don't care about spending or the debt. They just don't.
    As you wish. Let's see what the next election brings. Will voters demand socialism or freedom?

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