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Thread: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt Meowenstein View Post
    I disagree. The Democrats' plan does touch the fat 32% because they're willing to do both, which is what the fat 32% wants.
    They want both equal.

    If I tell you I'm going to punch you in the face now and in 10 years I'll give you $1000 as long as I don't forget, have the money, or can find you...that's equal?

    Taxing people now and theoritically cutting money 10 years down the line is not addressing this problem equally with tax increaes and costs.

    No loophole closures.
    Republicans had offered proposals to close tax loopholes, as long as in doing so we keep the effective tax rates. Democrats refused, showing that they don't care about "closing loopholes" or "streamlining the tax code", they care only about raising taxes.

    No, you're right, the Republicans right now are not interested in raising taxes. They think, like this President thought 6 months ago, that we shouldn't raise taxes in this economy. Its funny though...6 months ago the President agreed with not raising taxes on the rich, and now he wants to raise taxes on the rich. And yet we're supposed to believe that he's not going to turn around 6 months down the line and decide we don't need to cut spending if he's forced to agree to cut spending now but isn't actually forced to do any ACTUAL cutting?

    The Democrats are willing to do both.
    Yep, they are...as long as the taxes happen immedietely and the majority of the cuts take place 10 years down the road. Which falls in line with at most what...11% of those polled.

    Republicans will only agree to what they want - only spending cuts.
    Which is in line with about 20% of the poll.

    I can't remember, what number is higher...11 or 20? 11 or 20? Hmm....

    Therefore, Democrats are closer to the views of the majority of Americans.
    50% of Americans favor a plan that is primarily spending cuts, which is closer to what the Republicans want. 11% of Americans favor a plan that is primarily tax increases, which is closer to what the Democrats want.

    You show me a Democratic plan where spending cuts are happening on equal terms and progression as the tax hikes, and perhaps I'd view it differently. Give me a plan where the amount we cut in 10 years is equal to the amount we'll tax in 10 years and those taxes, like those spending cuts, goes away after 10 years and sure. Give me tax hikes that happen immedietely, continue on indefinitely, and pair it with spending cuts that primarily goes into effect 10 years down the line and try to call that equal? You may as well piss on my leg and try to tell me its raining because you'd be just about as believable.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Im going to ask not to react but to think. What do you think happens to tax increases on the wealthy? Keep in mind, those you deem as wealthy are generally net producers in any given economy. They produce products and services and they then charge more for those prices and services and this in turn increases the CPI. What nobody told you was that trickle down works both directions. Tax increases increase goods and service costs. Period.

    Government adds to costs in all kinds of different ways and directions. Get people to realize this and they will be a lot less anxious to raise taxes. At this point if government cannot pay its bills, its time to examine where the money is going and if it isnt 100% needed, maybe its time to get rid of it.

    Before you say that income tax is only part of the tax burden, I agree and I know that poor and lower income households pay a large portion of their share through sales taxes and the like, I get that. But they dont see that. If they saw it coming directly out of their pocket at the end of each year, they would notice. Believe it.
    Depends on how much. I really don't think tax increases have a huge effect, espeically on those who make the most. I hardly notice any change in my taxes, and I only make a little, comparatively.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Im going to ask not to react but to think. What do you think happens to tax increases on the wealthy? Keep in mind, those you deem as wealthy are generally net producers in any given economy. They produce products and services and they then charge more for those prices and services and this in turn increases the CPI. What nobody told you was that trickle down works both directions. Tax increases increase goods and service costs. Period.
    No, not period by a long shot. Some rich contribute to our net growth and more have invested in overeseas investments and moved our jobs there despite the 30 years of tax decreases we have given them. Now, if you want to give tax breaks to only those that actually create jobs or invest in our own country, then yes, target tax breaks to them, but don't give tax breaks to someone just because they are rich. Our 30 years of debt from this practice combined with spending money on optional wars there is no tax to support is killing this country. Its time to invest in our own.

    Government adds to costs in all kinds of different ways and directions. Get people to realize this and they will be a lot less anxious to raise taxes. At this point if government cannot pay its bills, its time to examine where the money is going and if it isnt 100% needed, maybe its time to get rid of it.
    Yes, I just mentioned the optional wars, mostly supported by the wealthy. If they had not been getting tax breaks for the last 30 years perhaps they would not be so quick to start them. Didn't follow that last bit, get rid of what?

    Before you say that income tax is only part of the tax burden, I agree and I know that poor and lower income households pay a large portion of their share through sales taxes and the like, I get that. But they dont see that. If they saw it coming directly out of their pocket at the end of each year, they would notice. Believe it.
    Sales tax, SS tax, Medicare tax, gasoline tax, etc., yes they do. What do you mean, they don't see that, most of it comes right out of their paychecks?

    Tell me something, how do you justify giving an average $58,000 tax break each year to many who do not invest it in this country? I would also be curious to know why, if trickle down economics is such a good plan why has it been a failure. If what you said were true, 30 years of tax breaks for the rich would have us rolling in jobs. I don't see them, do you?
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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    50% of Americans are not below the poverty line, yet that is how many pay no federal income taxes.
    No, i in 7 are below the poverty line with many more close to the edge. So you are suggesting we push the lower working class over the edge we can continue the $58,000 tax breaks for those at the top whose incomes have been climbing greatly while everyone else suffers? Is that your plan?
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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No, i in 7 are below the poverty line with many more close to the edge. So you are suggesting we push the lower working class over the edge we can continue the $58,000 tax breaks for those at the top whose incomes have been climbing greatly while everyone else suffers? Is that your plan?
    Nobody is proposing raising taxes on those at or near poverty. The only proposed tax increases being considered by the legislature are against the "rich". NOT taxing the rich at a higher rate does not push anybody over the "edge of poverty". Also, quite frankly, measuring poverty solely on the basis of claimed income is ridiculous. My boyfriend's sister is below the poverty level but she lives at home (by choice), has no bills, and blows her money on toys and trinkets. She's hardly suffering for anything, yet she's one of those "1 in 7" and I'm willing to be many of those live fairly comfortably. They may not be able to rock designer duds, but the vast majority of them are hardly suffering.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    I think we differ on the proportions. Right now I think we should be cutting a great deal more than we are taxing because spending has risen so dramatically in the last decade. I do indeed hold both parties responsible.
    Spending HAS risen so much in the past ten years, yes.

    But tax revenues as a percentage of GDP have gone way down as well - largely a result of the Republican tax cuts of 2001 and 2003.

    It was irresponsible to add the spending for two wars while simultaneously cutting taxes. We have NEVER in our history cut taxes while actively at war (not counting cold wars or "conflicts")

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    They want both equal.

    If I tell you I'm going to punch you in the face now and in 10 years I'll give you $1000 as long as I don't forget, have the money, or can find you...that's equal?

    Taxing people now and theoritically cutting money 10 years down the line is not addressing this problem equally with tax increaes and costs.
    Equal is not the point. A majority wants both. Dems are offering both. Repubs are only offering cuts. Pretty simple really.

    Republicans had offered proposals to close tax loopholes, as long as in doing so we keep the effective tax rates. Democrats refused, showing that they don't care about "closing loopholes" or "streamlining the tax code", they care only about raising taxes.
    I agree. Taxes should be raised on top earners. It's a no-brainer. Dems should stick with it. ANd once again, I have to point out that Dems are offering both cuts and tax increases. Repubs are only offering cuts.

    No, you're right, the Republicans right now are not interested in raising taxes. They think, like this President thought 6 months ago, that we shouldn't raise taxes in this economy. Its funny though...6 months ago the President agreed with not raising taxes on the rich, and now he wants to raise taxes on the rich. And yet we're supposed to believe that he's not going to turn around 6 months down the line and decide we don't need to cut spending if he's forced to agree to cut spending now but isn't actually forced to do any ACTUAL cutting?
    That's quite the stretch there, saying the president agreed that raising taxes was not the right thing to do. First of all, he said that raising taxes on the middle class is a bad idea. He pushed for the elimination of the Bush tax cuts for top earners. And the only reason he agreed to TEMPORARILY extend the Bush tax cuts was to reach a deal with Repubs who were holding unemployment benefits, among other things, hostage. So, it's a bit disingenuous to say that the president is against raising taxes.



    Yep, they are...as long as the taxes happen immedietely and the majority of the cuts take place 10 years down the road. Which falls in line with at most what...11% of those polled.



    Which is in line with about 20% of the poll.

    I can't remember, what number is higher...11 or 20? 11 or 20? Hmm....
    What was it, 71% favor both cuts and tax increases? Which is bigger, 20 or 71? 20 or 71? Hmmm......


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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Nobody is proposing raising taxes on those at or near poverty.
    You obviously missed the post I was responding to.

    The only proposed tax increases being considered by the legislature are against the "rich".
    Evidently, you have not been following the discussion of the tax reform that is being considered,

    Also, quite frankly, measuring poverty solely on the basis of claimed income is ridiculous. My boyfriend's sister is below the poverty level but she lives at home (by choice), has no bills, and blows her money on toys and trinkets. She's hardly suffering for anything, yet she's one of those "1 in 7" and I'm willing to be many of those live fairly comfortably. They may not be able to rock designer duds, but the vast majority of them are hardly suffering.
    I really have no interest in your personal anecdotes but thanks for sharing!

    Shallow statistics serve nobody.
    Thanks for your opinion based on your couple of personal anecdotes!
    Last edited by Catawba; 07-19-11 at 06:12 PM.
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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt Meowenstein View Post

    What was it, 71% favor both cuts and tax increases? Which is bigger, 20 or 71? 20 or 71? Hmmm......
    Your 71% is irrelevant in relation to the poll, which asked the question with Spending and Taxes DIRECTLY tied together.

    IE, there's nothing in the poll that says the 30% of people that said "Primarily cuts and some tax hikes" and "equal cuts and tax hikes" would agree with raising taxes with taxes being the majority of the focus. Indeed, the closest thing to answering what they'd say to that is the fact that only 7% of people actually supported that notion.

    Yes, 71% of the people agree with tax increases. 52% of which agree to it ONLY with equal or greater than focus on spending cuts. Which isn't what the Democrats are offering. So yeah, 71% is greater than 20%. Too bad what the Democrats are offering doesn't have 71% support

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Your 71% is irrelevant in relation to the poll, which asked the question with Spending and Taxes DIRECTLY tied together.

    IE, there's nothing in the poll that says the 30% of people that said "Primarily cuts and some tax hikes" and "equal cuts and tax hikes" would agree with raising taxes with taxes being the majority of the focus. Indeed, the closest thing to answering what they'd say to that is the fact that only 7% of people actually supported that notion.

    Yes, 71% of the people agree with tax increases. 52% of which agree to it ONLY with equal or greater than focus on spending cuts. Which isn't what the Democrats are offering. So yeah, 71% is greater than 20%. Too bad what the Democrats are offering doesn't have 71% support
    How can you predict what the Democrats and GOP will finally agree on? How do you know they will not provide $3 of spending for every $1 of revenue increase? As far as I have been able to determine, there is no agreed upon plan yet.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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