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Thread: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    There have been 19 other polls since January that all say the same thing:


    19 Different Polls Show That Americans Support Tax Increases To Cut Deficit
    I think they agree in principle, but I bet if pressed, each individual would give you a different answer on how much cutting and how much increased taxes they would like to see. I also can almost dead certain predict they dont think that their taxes should be increased. Thats part of the problem right now. An overwhelming number of citizens do not pay income tax at all, so its not their problem. IF they knew as a dead certaintly they would have to pay more, we might be seeing very different poll results.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    I think a lot of the recommendations from Simpson Bowles were reasonable and should have been followed. Our tax code is a mess. Straightening it out and lessening the impact of tax avoidance is a good stance.

    However our current corporate tax is amongst the highest in the world, if we want to raise revenues we need to grow our GDP. We wont do that by continuing to tax corporations in a global economy. Its far too easy to shift your center of operations and grow elsewhere. Cuomo sees that on a state level in NY and I think Quinn in Illinois is seeing it very strongly with the current changes they made to state income tax, as far as Brown in California, I dunno. I mention these three states because they have tremendous operating budgets and are in the most trouble in terms of spending and unfunded liabilities (insurance, pensions and benefits down the road).

    I bet we also disagree on amortization of capital as a "loophole" but its been there for a very long time, and capital investments do indeed depreciate.
    I don't think lessening taxes will grow GDP. I think that is my biggest disagreement. Short of next to no taxes at all, in the global market places, with cheap labor and other perks, no tax change will make us competitive. A friend of mind here at the school calls it the Mexicization of America, in which we bring workers here to the level of the worker in Mexico. He maintains that only that will ever bring corporations that choose to leave here back. Don't know if he's completely right, but I do believe taxes play a much smaller role in all this than many seem to think.

    The American dream used to include retiring well. And business, as well as government did advance this illusion. Business in too many cases also proved unable to do this, for varying reasons. We may have to rethink this, change things, and the fight may well be difficult, but it shouldn't involve much of the demonization that goes on.

    But, your post was a nice read, thanks.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    I think they agree in principle, but I bet if pressed, each individual would give you a different answer on how much cutting and how much increased taxes they would like to see. I also can almost dead certain predict they dont think that their taxes should be increased. Thats part of the problem right now. An overwhelming number of citizens do not pay income tax at all, so its not their problem. IF they knew as a dead certaintly they would have to pay more, we might be seeing very different poll results.

    Neither party is calling for a middle class tax increase. They have already suffered too much. It would be impractical and political suicide. Since 2009, 1 in 7 Americans live in poverty. While the rich's wealth has grown exceptionally during these hard times for the rest of the country due to the average $58,000 tax cut they still enjoy each year from the Bush Administration.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    I believe this needs to be a compromise. You cannot significantly reduce that deficit without cutting domestic spending with a god damn meat cleaver, which will hurt the economy. We became the best country in the world through investment in science and technology and government spending on the military (I oppose military spending cuts more than 1-2 hundred billion) and we need to spend domestically.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Neither party is calling for a middle class tax increase. They have already suffered too much. It would be impractical and political suicide. Since 2009, 1 in 7 Americans live in poverty. While the rich's wealth has grown exceptionally during these hard times for the rest of the country due to the average $58,000 tax cut they still enjoy each year from the Bush Administration.
    Thats exactly right. Its also exactly why tax increases gain so much traction. IF the lower middle class and poor had an income tax of any appreciable amount, calls for cuts would be all you would see.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    I don't think lessening taxes will grow GDP. I think that is my biggest disagreement. Short of next to no taxes at all, in the global market places, with cheap labor and other perks, no tax change will make us competitive.
    Tax and regulation stability. Agree. Uncertainty means no new hires, it encourages wait and see from the accounting depts.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Thats exactly right. Its also exactly why tax increases gain so much traction. IF the lower middle class and poor had an income tax of any appreciable amount, calls for cuts would be all you would see.
    The poor already live below the poverty line and more and more of the lowere middle class are being forced into poverty. How do you tax someone that doesn't have the money to meet all his survival needs? And why would you when the rich receive an average $58,000 tax cut each year? That is more than the average American's wages for a year!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Im going to ask not to react but to think. What do you think happens to tax increases on the wealthy? Keep in mind, those you deem as wealthy are generally net producers in any given economy. They produce products and services and they then charge more for those prices and services and this in turn increases the CPI. What nobody told you was that trickle down works both directions. Tax increases increase goods and service costs. Period.

    Government adds to costs in all kinds of different ways and directions. Get people to realize this and they will be a lot less anxious to raise taxes. At this point if government cannot pay its bills, its time to examine where the money is going and if it isnt 100% needed, maybe its time to get rid of it.

    Before you say that income tax is only part of the tax burden, I agree and I know that poor and lower income households pay a large portion of their share through sales taxes and the like, I get that. But they dont see that. If they saw it coming directly out of their pocket at the end of each year, they would notice. Believe it.

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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The poor already live below the poverty line and more and more of the lowere middle class are being forced into poverty. How do you tax someone that doesn't have the money to meet all his survival needs? And why would you when the rich receive an average $58,000 tax cut each year? That is more than the average American's wages for a year!
    50% of Americans are not below the poverty line, yet that is how many pay no federal income taxes.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

    For some reason the poll's pdf won't load for me. However, if it follows the path other polls have been going its correct...to a point.

    The Majority of American's favor allowing some kind of tax increase. In general, polls have been coming out with about 20% wanting no tax increases at all and just under 10% wanting only tax increases. So you have about 70% in the juicy middle.

    Here's the issue though of course...

    The vast majority of support for the inclusion of taxes is in the middle where people want an equal use of tax hikes and spending cuts. You ask when the Republicans will get on board? The same question can be asked of the Democrats.

    The Democrats are not suggesting an equal use of tax hikes or spending cuts. They are suggesting tax hikes that happen immediately, effect people immediately, go into their full effect on day one. They are also suggesting spending cuts that are stretched over more than a decade and are severely back loaded in regards to savings, making a guarantee those savings will even come tenuous at best.

    That is not an equal approach of taxes and spending, that is an approach that is primarily focused on tax hikes that has spending cuts included in it. In every poll I’ve seen that approach combined with “tax only” has relatively the same support as the notion of doing JUST spending cuts.

    So while you can point to the fact that the majority of Americans are in favor of some form of tax increase, what you can’t do honestly or truthfully is suggest that somehow the Democratic suggestion of what to do is anywhere closer to the middle or the majority of what America wants than the Republicans. They’re both sitting at near opposite ends, with the Democrats slightly farther away from their extreme end but at the same time having their end not be as large as the Republicans in terms of support.

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