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Poll: 71% shun GOP handling of debt crisis

The Barbarian said:
I'm not continuing on at all ... I was all in favor of letting the tax cuts expire .. . but just so I have this clear in my mind .. according to you, because more democrats voted against a bill that extended the tax cuts, a bill that they themselves wrote .... a bill that if it hadn't been written at all .. and voted on .... would have allowed those tax cuts to expired and caused this tax increase to the rich ...... it's the republicans fault that those tax cuts are still in place ??? Is that your position ?
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The majority of Democrats in every vote in congress since their inception have voted against the Bush tax cuts for the rich, while the majority of Republicans voted for the Bush tax cuts. That same history is continuing in the current deficit debate. The majority of Democrats remain opposed to continuing the tax cuts for the rich while the majority of Republicans support the tax cuts for the rich.

Its been theme leading up to the election and I for one am glad to see the GOP being so open about their overriding priority for lower taxes for the rich.

They are ready to put the full faith and credit of the nation at risk just to protect those tax cuts for the rich. It speaks volumes and America is listening! :sun
 
The Barbarian said:
Oh .. and you …. continue on brave soldier in defense of the wild sprending spree on the backs of our seniors..... their children and grand children and even their great grand children.
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I was opposed to both of our decade long wars and the doubling of military budget, and the unfunded tax breaks for the rich. That is the largest share of debt we have from the last decade so don't lecture me on supporting wasteful spending.

Btw, just for the record the majority of Democrats opposed the war in Iraq. If it had not been for majority support by the Republicans we would never gone to war with Iraq with all the unnecessary loss of life and increased debt for the last 8 years.

Now, the GOP is saying the seniors must suffer because of their poor spending priorities of the past. It ain't gonna fly! :sun


BTW, how's the Cain campaign doing? Still thinking he's going to be your parties nominee?
 
The Barbarian said:
Fine ... then put the only bill that has been passed by either house ... on the floor ... and fix it .. then send it back to the house .. if it's turned down .. then you have a talking point, right now .. there isn't another plan out that .. that either side can get enough votes to even think about passing. Parden me for thinking .. that when you have but one plan out there, that it shouldn't be tossed to the side without discussion . ..... I don't see how the democrats refusal to even open the floor for discussion about this bill ... is any different then republicans refusal to even discuss any bill presented by democrats

Don't get me wrong, I'm not just blaming democrats, I'm blaming the last 20 years of politics that have gotten us to this point ... where quite frankly ... we just don't have the money to spend anymore
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IMO opening the floor to debate about cut, cap and balance would be an enormous detraction from the process. Every senator would want to give 10 speeches on it, it would drag on for days, all kinds of people would be taking extreme positions and fighting and whatnot, all the time with every one of them knowing that it is all just for political show... We have five days left, I don't think we should be spending a week debating a proposal everybody knows is bogus. Fixing it would mean dismantling the core provisions- you can't tie spending to GDP, you can't cap it at a fixed percentage, and really, you can't balance the budget when you're in a recession.

Keep in mind, this whole crisis was explicitly created by the Republicans. Raising the debt limit has been a standard operating procedure for the entire history of our country. Remember- this is money Congress already decided to spend. Committing to spend money then refusing to make good on your own commitment is a very strange tactic and was entirely a Republican idea. The debt is problematic. It is about 70% as high as it's WW2 peak as a percentage of GDP. That's not good, but that isn't like OMG we're all going to die tomorrow if we don't balance the budget today panic time. It has been higher than this in the past and we've paid it down just fine. All it took last time was increasing tax revenues. This time IMO we should do it with a mix of revenues and spending cuts. But spending cuts should be passed by Congress like they are supposed to be, not forced through by threatening to destroy the economy by a party that apparently doesn't have enough votes for what they want to do.
 
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teamosil said:
IMO opening the floor to debate about cut, cap and balance would be an enormous detraction from the process. Every senator would want to give 10 speeches on it, it would drag on for days, all kinds of people would be taking extreme positions and fighting and whatnot, all the time with every one of them knowing that it is all just for political show... We have five days left, I don't think we should be spending a week debating a proposal everybody knows is bogus. Fixing it would mean dismantling the core provisions- you can't tie spending to GDP, you can't cap it at a fixed percentage, and really, you can't balance the budget when you're in a recession.

Keep in mind, this whole crisis was explicitly created by the Republicans. Raising the debt limit has been a standard operating procedure for the entire history of our country. Remember- this is money Congress already decided to spend. Committing to spend money then refusing to make good on your own commitment is a very strange tactic and was entirely a Republican idea. The debt is problematic. It is about 70% as high as it's WW2 peak as a percentage of GDP. That's not good, but that isn't like OMG we're all going to die tomorrow if we don't balance the budget today panic time. It has been higher than this in the past and we've paid it down just fine. All it took last time was increasing tax revenues. This time IMO we should do it with a mix of revenues and spending cuts. But spending cuts should be passed by Congress like they are supposed to be, not forced through by threatening to destroy the economy by a party that apparently doesn't have enough votes for what they want to do.
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Republicans are desperate to make Obama a one-term president and they are gambling with our country by sending the economy into tumoil next week on the hope that they can spin it to make it Obama's fault, thus ensuring a Republican victory next year. I believe they don't fully realize the backlash they will suffer as a result of this Hail Mary they are attempting as Americans are not as stupid as they seem to think.
 
Sheik Yerbuti said:
Republicans are desperate to make Obama a one-term president and they are gambling with our country by sending the economy into tumoil next week on the hope that they can spin it to make it Obama's fault, thus ensuring a Republican victory next year. I believe they don't fully realize the backlash they will suffer as a result of this Hail Mary they are attempting as Americans are not as stupid as they seem to think.
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Lets see. House of Reps controlled by Rep. Senate Controlled by Dems. Office of President by a Dem. So how can you say its the Republicans only are causing this crisis. Dems controlled two of the three. All parties including the President are to blame for this mess. So in you view are the Dems blameless and are totally reasonable? I don't think so. This is all politics to its lowest level.

Simple example of the process: Bills go from the house to the Senate. Senate either modifies and send it back to the House or accepts it. Then it goes to the President for signature. Seems the Senate and the Pres has verbally rejected anything from the House so far.

Here is how to end the crisis, do a Pelosi, (paraphrased) , We have to pass the bill before we can know whats in it. It worked for Health Care why not the Debt ceiling.:lol:
 
pbrauer said:
Look at the spending for the Defense Dept. in 2001, then look what it is today. Yet, those make believers want everyone to believe the problem is what they call entitlements.
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There's what you wrote... and then there are facts.

If you look at military spending from an historical perspective -- even with two (three?) wars -- it's relatively low right now, as it was throughout the Bush years:

but-even-with-those-wars-defense-spending-is-still-below-its-average-as-a-percent-of-gdp-for-the-past-60-years.jpg


The same cannot be said for entitlements:

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entitlements.jpg


military_chart3_600px.ashx
 
mike2810 said:
Simple example of the process: Bills go from the house to the Senate. Senate either modifies and send it back to the House or accepts it. Then it goes to the President for signature. Seems the Senate and the Pres has verbally rejected anything from the House so far.
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Which is why I put more blame on Republicans over this than Democrats. Republicans are a) not compromising; and b) not passing a bill which can reasonably accepted in the Senate. Please. They're insisting on a Constitutional amendment over this. The debt ceiling has been raised 67 times in the past without the need for a Constitutional amendment, which they couldn't get ratified in time even if that were acceptable. They are intentionally passing poison bills, knowing they're unreasonable and knowing they won't pass -- for the sole purpose of saying, "look, we gave them a choice to raise the debt limit, Obama wouldn't accept it." I didn't buy their ploy and I suspect a majority of Americans won't either.

The appropriate way to handle this, I believe, is to pass an increase to the debt limit with nothing else in it. No spending cuts, no tax hikes. Just raise the ceiling so that our economy doesn't crash and our credit rating get downgraded. There will be serious and possibly dire consequences if those occur and that needs to be averted. Raise the ceiling and then bang heads with each other over taxes and spending; but don't gamble with this country's future by blackmailing us with the threat of a potential economic collapse.
 
Sheik Yerbuti said:
Which is why I put more blame on Republicans over this than Democrats. Republicans are a) not compromising; and b) not passing a bill which can reasonably accepted in the Senate. Please. They're insisting on a Constitutional amendment over this. The debt ceiling has been raised 67 times in the past without the need for a Constitutional amendment, which they couldn't get ratified in time even if that were acceptable. They are intentionally passing poison bills, knowing they're unreasonable and knowing they won't pass -- for the sole purpose of saying, "look, we gave them a choice to raise the debt limit, Obama wouldn't accept it." I didn't buy their ploy and I suspect a majority of Americans won't either.

The appropriate way to handle this, I believe, is to pass an increase to the debt limit with nothing else in it. No spending cuts, no tax hikes. Just raise the ceiling so that our economy doesn't crash and our credit rating get downgraded. There will be serious and possibly dire consequences if those occur and that needs to be averted. Raise the ceiling and then bang heads with each other over taxes and spending; but don't gamble with this country's future by blackmailing us with the threat of a potential economic collapse.
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I can agree for now that they should just raise the debt limit. Deal with the spending and tax rates later.
I don't agree that the Repubs are more to blame. I don't see a whole lot of compromise by the Senate. Thought Obama said he won't sign a debt increase bill without new revenu.
 
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pbrauer said:
Those in a make believe think that Bush's tax cuts and the war in Iraq haven't caused the debt problems we have today. Look at the spending for the Defense Dept. in 2001, then look what it is today. Yet, those make believers want everyone to believe the problem is what they call entitlements.
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the problem is entitlements. Defense spending will lower naturally as we pull back from Iraq and Afghanistan. Meanwhile, Social Security and Medicare are set to explode in costs. Medicare on its' current path will be bankrupt within the decade, and it will drag Social Security with it.
 
mike2810 said:
I can agree for now that they should just raise the debt limit. Deal with the spending and tax rates later.
I don't agree that the Repubs are more to blame. I don't see a whole lot of compromise by the Senate. Thought Obama said he won't sign a debt increase bill without new revenu.
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Obama has since caved on that. Now, his only demand remaining is that what he signs has to have some length to it. I.E. he's not going to sign a bill that just puts us right back in the same mess again in six months.

The last thing we need is to do this all over again right as we enter the Christmas buying season.
 
Sheik Yerbuti said:
Republicans are desperate to make Obama a one-term president and they are gambling with our country by sending the economy into tumoil next week on the hope that they can spin it to make it Obama's fault, thus ensuring a Republican victory next year. I believe they don't fully realize the backlash they will suffer as a result of this Hail Mary they are attempting as Americans are not as stupid as they seem to think.
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BS. Republicans have passed their own plans, and come to bipartisan agreements with Democrat leaders on others. There is only one actor in this farce who has consistently said "no" to everything offered him and that is President Barack Obama, who does think that he benefits politically from going past Aug 2. His 2012 campaign is going to be one of "Republicans Want To Kill Your Grandmother" nonsense, and he needs an economic narrative that will back that up and let him try to share blame for the continued poor state of the economy.
 
FilmFestGuy said:
Obama has since caved on that. Now, his only demand remaining is that what he signs has to have some length to it. I.E. he's not going to sign a bill that just puts us right back in the same mess again in six months.
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"Now, let me be clear. Going past August 2nd would be a disaster. Social Security recipients might not get their checks. Agriculture may come to a halt. US Debt may get downgraded, and the economy could go into a tailspin.

Which is why we all agree that none of these things are as important as making sure that I don't have to handle this politically damaging issue again before November 2012, when I want to be reelected.


Good night, God Bless America, and %&%& you all."
 
cpwill said:
BS. Republicans have passed their own plans, and come to bipartisan agreements with Democrat leaders on others. There is only one actor in this farce who has consistently said "no" to everything offered him and that is President Barack Obama, who does think that he benefits politically from going past Aug 2. His 2012 campaign is going to be one of "Republicans Want To Kill Your Grandmother" nonsense, and he needs an economic narrative that will back that up and let him try to share blame for the continued poor state of the economy.
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The BS was the bill Republicans passed, which they knew was absurd when they passed it. It required ratification by 2/3rds of states which could not be accomplished by Tuesday and it demands massive budget cuts which belong in the budget. Republicans don't feel confident they will get the cuts they want in a budget so they're holding the nation hostage to get what they want.
 
Taylor said:
There's what you wrote... and then there are facts.

If you look at military spending from an historical perspective -- even with two (three?) wars -- it's relatively low right now, as it was throughout the Bush years:

but-even-with-those-wars-defense-spending-is-still-below-its-average-as-a-percent-of-gdp-for-the-past-60-years.jpg


The same cannot be said for entitlements:

image_thumb5.png


entitlements.jpg


military_chart3_600px.ashx
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You forgot to add the 2 trillion that was taken from SS that still has to be paid back. We spend almost on military as the rest of the world does combined. Not so with entitlements that has been mostly funded through FICA taxes. We are no where near spending as much on entitlements as the rest of the world combined. :sun
 
cpwill said:
the problem is entitlements. Defense spending will lower naturally as we pull back from Iraq and Afghanistan. Meanwhile, Social Security and Medicare are set to explode in costs. Medicare on its' current path will be bankrupt within the decade, and it will drag Social Security with it.
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Nice spin. Bush doubled military spending excluding the additional cost of his wars. That won't lower naturally. It will have to be cut. The problem is not entitlements. When the money stolen from SS for the decade long wars is repaid, it will be good for half a century. By also raising the FICA cap, it is back up to speed for the foreseeable future. The root problem of Medicare is that the US has the most expensive health care system in the world. Upgrading to UHC is the only solution to that problem.
 
Taylor said:
There's what you wrote... and then there are facts.

If you look at military spending from an historical perspective -- even with two (three?) wars -- it's relatively low right now, as it was throughout the Bush years:

but-even-with-those-wars-defense-spending-is-still-below-its-average-as-a-percent-of-gdp-for-the-past-60-years.jpg


The same cannot be said for entitlements:

image_thumb5.png


entitlements.jpg


military_chart3_600px.ashx
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Next time you want to post a bunch of crap.. Do us the courtesy of at least sourcing your stuff.. Why is it with you conservatives there is never a link.. If you want me to consider you views and evidence, then you need to post a damn link to it!! Otherwise it doesn't exist.. Get it??
 
Catawba said:
Nice spin. Bush doubled military spending excluding the additional cost of his wars
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no, he didn't. the charts above show that Bush increased military spending, but certainly didn't double it as a % of GDP.

That won't lower naturally. It will have to be cut.
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it is lowering naturally as we withdraw from both of those conflicts. and the DOD has already been cut (unlike the rest of the government), and will be cut more in the future.
The problem is not entitlements. When the money stolen from SS for the decade long wars is repaid, it will be good for half a century
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and where, forsooth, are we going to get this money? do you have $86 Trillion on your person?

the problem is indeed entitlements and accumulated debt. particularly medicare:

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and w0o is it ever a problem:

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but Defense? nah, there's not enough there to stop that rise:

slide-91.jpg




again, you could cut every dollar from the defense budget, and still not have enough to pay for our entitlements.

By also raising the FICA cap, it is back up to speed for the foreseeable future. The root problem of Medicare is that the US has the most expensive health care system in the world. Upgrading to UHC is the only solution to that problem.
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that is laughably incorrect. it is a potential solution, but a poor one. shifting the structure of Medicare to something that functions like Part D while raising the retirement age slightly for SS and Medicare both is a far superior option.
 
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pbrauer said:
When will the GOP/Tea Party wise up?



Poll: 71% shun GOP handling of debt crisis - Political Hotsheet - CBS News
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There is no debt crisis. The US is not going to default, even if the debt celeing isn't raised for another 5 years.

Any 3rd grader can find 0.4 in 2.2. Our debt is going to be the first bill paid.

In the event of a government shut-down, the President decides which parts of the government get shut down. If parks are closed, it's at the President's direction. If SS isn't paid, it's at the President's direction.

All this is, is President Obama trolling the public so as to bully Congress to give him more money, because he knows he over spent even his liberal budget and needs a golden parachute.

We were dumb enough to elect him, and we're dumb enough to believe him now after all we've seen him do.
 
cpwill said:
no, he didn't. the charts above show that Bush increased military spending, but certainly didn't double it as a % of GDP.
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I never said it doubled as percentage of GDP. Why the hell would it? You think our need for defense increases as a percentage of GDP?

"President Bush Jr. more than doubled military spending during his presidency, from $300 billion in 2000 to $650 billion by the time he left office."
The Baines Report » Featured » Reducing the Deficit with Drugs


it is lowering naturally as we withdraw from both of those conflicts. and the DOD has already been cut (unlike the rest of the government), and will be cut more in the future.
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Not if it is up to the GOP. They didn't even include it in their deficit reductions plan.


and where, forsooth, are we going to get this money? do you have $86 Trillion on your person?
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It took 30 years of tax cuts to create the debt, it will take 30 years of a FICA cap increase to fix the problem.

the problem is indeed entitlements and accumulated debt.
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thanks for your opinion!


particularly medicare:
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Private health insurance has become just unaffordable as Medicare. we will have to address the underlying problem, our nations outdated health care system that is the most expensive on the planet.
 
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Catawba said:
I never said it doubled as percentage of GDP. Why the hell would it? You think our need for defense increases as a percentage of GDP?
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absolutely. however, defense spending doubling in raw dollars isn't a really accurate depiction. government spending is measured either in constant dollars, or in % of GDP.

"President Bush Jr. more than doubled military spending during his presidency, from $300 billion in 2000 to $650 billion by the time he left office."
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yawn. except of course that number isn't in constant dollars.

Not if it is up to the GOP. They didn't even include it in their deficit reductions plan.
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there were indeed DOD cuts in there; though they were wise to minimize those.

It took 30 years of tax cuts to create the debt, it will take 30 years of a FICA cap increase to fix the problem.
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not only did revenues increase after those tax cuts, revenues as a % of GDP increased, and revenues specifically from the high-earners increased. spending has simply increased faster than revenues have.

thanks for your opinion!
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no, everyone has a right to their own opinion. you don't get your own numbers, and the numbers are clear. entitlement growth is what drives our debt going forward. Bill Clinton recognizes it. The Bowles-Simpson Commission recognize it. The Medicare/Medicaid Actuaries recognize it. The AARP recognizes it. The CBO recognizes it. Even President Obama agrees you cannot tax your way to paying for Medicare.

Private health insurance has become just unaffordable as Medicare.
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no. private health insurance as it is currently structured has become more difficult to afford because of Medicare. were I to find myself bereft tomorrow of coverage from my job I would go get an HSA, which is eminently affordable.

we will have to address the underlying problem, our nations outdated health care system that is the most expensive on the planet.
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i agree we need to address it. specifically, we need to model the rest of our government provision of healthcare after the one program that has been proven to work at both providing care and holding down costs and expenditures - Medicare D.
 
cpwill said:
absolutely. however, defense spending doubling in raw dollars isn't a really accurate depiction. government spending is measured either in constant dollars, or in % of GDP.
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Perhaps not if your thing is dishonest spin. Please explain how an increased GDP increases the military threat to us?

So you are suggesting all government spending should increase as the GDP does eh?
 
Catawba said:
Perhaps not if your thing is dishonest spin. Please explain how an increased GDP increases the military threat to us?
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given that increased GDP means a reduced need for social safety net expenditures, are you sure you would want to travel down that road?

So you are suggesting all government spending should increase as the GDP does eh?
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that is what baseline spending does. And once we've gotten it back down to sustainable levels, I'm fine freezing it all.
 
this stupid game of chicken is something i'll consider when the 2012 elections come around.
 
cpwill said:
given that increased GDP means a reduced need for social safety net expenditures, are you sure you would want to travel down that road?
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You are the one that brought it up! Its ok if you've change your mind.



that is what baseline spending does. And once we've gotten it back down to sustainable levels, I'm fine freezing it all.
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So, in your mind, baseline spending increases the military threat against the US????
 
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