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Thread: Obama’s Popularity in Arab World Now Lower than Bush’s

  1. #41
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    Re: Obama’s Popularity in Arab World Now Lower than Bush’s

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Russia is NOT a Western country. Even by UN reckoning, it is not - it is in the Eastern European group. Why should more than one Arab state be a member. There is one other state in the UNSC with a Muslim majority population, another with a nearly majority Muslim population and another which happens to have more Muslims than any Arab state has.
    Whether or not there "should" be another Arab state on the UNSC is irrelevant...the fact that there isn't, means that a lot of Arabs aren't going to particularly care about the UNSC's decisions. And other Muslim nations are not the same thing, any more than the US and Russia are the same just because they're both nominally Christian-majority countries.

    Mango season comes at about the same time typhoon season begins... are mangoes the cause of the typhoons?
    So I take that as a yes? You ARE saying it was just a coincidence that the Iraqi insurgency started shortly after the US-led invasion? Talk about bad timing!

    Except that it seemingly IS an increasingly partisan issue in the US. I know, let's ignore things like facts.
    I've never detected any significant partisan slants to opinions on the TSA, and in any case it's not relevant to the point I was making. You are intentionally missing the point because you don't want to accept the fact that your own country is just as irrational about the threats it perceives.

    Ummm.. except that many of those Arabs are FULL OF IT! How many of those Arab states have invaded Israel? How many of those Arabs want Israel driven off the map? How many of those Arabs support Hamas, which has the stated goal of the destruction of Israel.
    Let's just say I respond to this by posting a laundry list of Arab complaints against the US, because I don't feel like repeating myself.

    I honestly hope you don't beleive your own drivel. As for Iran, I will simply point to the words of their crazy president...
    Let's just say I respond to this by posting a list of intemperate quotes from George Bush, because I don't feel like Googling them.

    Once in response to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, don't forget. The other after more than a decade of broken promises and resolutions on the part of Saddam Hussein. He was a brutal dictator and I am still not shedding any tears that he is no longer sharing oxygen with the rest of us.
    In the eyes of many Arabs, one mass murderer (Saddam Hussein) was simply replaced by another (the US government and the various insurgents). But I forgot, it's OK when we kill civilians because the US always has wonderful intentions in mind.

    As for Libya, remember that 1. Libya was responsible for attacks against Americans in the 1980s and 2. ARAB STATES originally called for what is going on now.
    Yes, Arab STATES. You know, those same entities that were/are mostly supported by the US government which the Arab PEOPLE are rebelling against.

    Besides, I thought liberals were arguing that the U.S. is not involved in hostilities against Libya. Now we are?
    I have no idea what you're talking about or how you think it's remotely relevant to the conversation. In any case, I'm really not interested in what you imagine liberals believe.

    And I applaud them for this, so long as they aren't replaced by non-US backed dictators who are as bad (or worse) than their predecesors.
    Who the hell are you to tell them who their government should ally with, or to assess how bad their leadership is? Arabs deserve the right to make mistakes with their leaders just like everyone else. Democracy is a process of trial and error.

    I did not call them morons. Unreasonable? Yes. Morons, no. And I do not believe the US is always well intentioned... if it were, it would tell China to stick it where the sun doesn't shine and give stronger support to the region's democracies.
    If you acknowledge that the US is self-interested rather than altruistic, then this shouldn't be difficult for you to understand. Imagine that Russia was doing exactly the same type of things in the Middle East that we were, with exactly the same justifications. Suppose that Vladimir Putin started bombing Bahrain, supposedly to protect peaceful protesters from their oppressive government. Would you support his decision, or would you flip out and rant about how evil he was?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-18-11 at 04:06 AM.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Obama’s Popularity in Arab World Now Lower than Bush’s

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    I don't trust polls until I get to look at their methodology.
    You need to study the rationale behind the methods before you trust a poll? fwiw, I don't think polls are worth crap except as conversation pieces best explored in methods, but I'd be happy to discuss methodology.

  3. #43
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    Re: Obama’s Popularity in Arab World Now Lower than Bush’s

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Besides all that, Deuce, how does an Isreali pollster rate the views of its enemy pertaining to a nation that has sworn to remain allied with them in their defense? For those who buy this garbage, think about it...think about it long and hard....
    I would like to change my position as outlined above. Keep reading and you'll better understand why.

    Below are comments pulled from this thread that seem to provide scewed views on why many in the Muslim world hold an unfavorable view of America. Understand, most Muslims don't hate America; they just have an unfavorable view of our foreign policies as they relate to or affect politics in the Muslim world, politics that have help shape their countries which seems to mirror the exact same conclusion James Zodgy came to in his poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Μολὼν λαβέ View Post
    I agree, we should stay out of the middle east and let the dictators keep on dictating. The Arabs actually seem to like being treated like subjects rather than citizens. Its been working that way for thousands of years, right? Hey, if brutality is an effect of living in that type of society then so be it I guess. Then deal with it Arabs, right? As far as Israel goes, then stay out of their business too. You can't have it both ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    The Arab world is "around the world"?

    Someone needs a lesson in geography. Hint: FoxNews is not the place to learn about geography.

    The statements above do hold some truths. However, in spite of their negative slants, I believe the responses re-quoted below provide the most accurate accessments as to why many within the Muslim world have an unfavorable view of America right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I think these findings prove that, despite our natural intuition that people all over the world would LOVE it when their countries are bombed and invaded by foreigners, Arabs actually DON'T like that! And apparently they also don't like it when we offer unconditional support to the country they perceive as the greatest threat to them. What a shock!
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    Is anyone really surprised at this?

    If the US is going to send their armies around the world spreading freedom and democracy when it suits, obviously not everyone is going to be jumping around for joy. How many people have died in iraq over a trumped-up war? Where is the humility? Where is the apology? Where is the accountability? There is none in the US because some people continue to wear the colours of the flag in their hearts and minds without actually seeing what that really means. They are so quick to get their panties in a bunch when any criticism regarding US Foreign Policy is made.

    Its about accepting the fact that of the unnecessary evil that exists in this world, sometimes America contributes to it. For last 10 years Bin Laden has been the symbol of evil in America. Don't some of you guys recognize that the US flag is that same symbol to many people around the world? Feel free to brush it off as you can't please everyone or we try our best, but we can't make everyone happy. That just continues to show how oblivious some of the American public are to the actions committed by the current and past governments. That is what is truly sad.
    Not long after 9/11, Gallop, the American polling company, conducted a survey throughout the Muslim world and asked questions centered around Muslim's view of America and what issues were important to them. The results were so revealing that Gallup decided to make a documentary where members of the Muslim world - including some moderate Muslim who are themselves U.S. citizens - and let them speak for themselves on the matters that most affect them, i.e., their religious believes, their religious and cultural attire for women, their aspirations and desire to have the same freedoms we enjoy in America such as free speech, voting rights and equality among women. The documentary video linked herein entitled "Inside Islam" as told by moderate American Muslims and Arab Muslims alike paint a very different picture than what we in America see and read about. I would urge all who are interested in learning of exactly what impression many Muslims have of America and Americans to watch this documentary. It may change your opinion of Muslims in general.

    This is not to say that James Zogby, the anti-Isreali pollster, was wrong. For according to the documentary, America's foreign policy in the Arab world is the primary reason for anti-American sentiments. However, I believe that just as Muslims abroad hold a negative view of America based on scewed information, so do many Americans hold a similar scewed view of Muslims based on negative information. For those who dare to watch the video, try to keep an open mind and see things from their point of view. As the documentary points out, there are millions of peaceful Muslims in the world, but only a small handful are getting international attention and that attention is mostly very negative in its extreme. As the saying goes, "one bad apple spoils the bunch". This is not to say that we shouldn't stay on-guard for those who wish to do us harm. But if we've learned nothing about our own history of blind bigotry, we shouldn't lump every Muslim in the same bunch just because of the misguided deeds of a few. Such a perspective follows similar logic of "don't hate me because of things my White ancesters did to Blacks."

  4. #44
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    Re: Obama’s Popularity in Arab World Now Lower than Bush’s

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Whether or not there "should" be another Arab state on the UNSC is irrelevant...the fact that there isn't, means that a lot of Arabs aren't going to particularly care about the UNSC's decisions. And other Muslim nations are not the same thing, any more than the US and Russia are the same just because they're both nominally Christian-majority countries.
    Well, that is their problem. The non-permanent makeup of the UNSC is spread out throughout the world... there have been times where there have been two Arab members - depending on who the Africans elect.

    So I take that as a yes? You ARE saying it was just a coincidence that the Iraqi insurgency started shortly after the US-led invasion? Talk about bad timing!
    Didn't say that. Just raised question as to the cause. I believe it is more a cause of the insurgents not accepting democratic institutions. Otherwise, why are they spending so much time attacking Iraqis, Iraqi infrastructure, Iraqis voting, etc. rather than solely targeting u.S. service personnel?

    I've never detected any significant partisan slants to opinions on the TSA, and in any case it's not relevant to the point I was making. You are intentionally missing the point because you don't want to accept the fact that your own country is just as irrational about the threats it perceives.
    I perceive there to be a slant, but I agree that in this context it is not overly relevant.


    Let's just say I respond to this by posting a laundry list of Arab complaints against the US, because I don't feel like repeating myself.
    And I think that so-called laundry list is for the most part not the U.S.'s fault. The Chinese have a laundry list against the U.S. as well, but a close examination of it shows that it is pretty shallow, indeed.

    Let's just say I respond to this by posting a list of intemperate quotes from George Bush, because I don't feel like Googling them.
    Well, your problem, then.

    In the eyes of many Arabs, one mass murderer (Saddam Hussein) was simply replaced by another (the US government and the various insurgents). But I forgot, it's OK when we kill civilians because the US always has wonderful intentions in mind.
    Difference -- Saddam INTENTIONALLY killed innocent civilians... the U.S. it is largely inadvertant... and who has killed more civilians, the U.S. or the so-called insurgents?

    Yes, Arab STATES. You know, those same entities that were/are mostly supported by the US government which the Arab PEOPLE are rebelling against.
    For the record, I have been critical of the U.S. supporting leaders like the Saud family in the past. Look, the world isn't perfect. You seem to have the notion that we live in an ideal world. We don't. I would suggest that it was reasonable for us to support some of these scumbags during the Cold War. It isn't nice and pretty, but Realpolitik was reasonable in the global context. Is just became all too easy to continue to support them even nearly two decades after the fall of Soviet Communism.

    I have no idea what you're talking about or how you think it's remotely relevant to the conversation. In any case, I'm really not interested in what you imagine liberals believe.
    Then perhaps you should follow the thread of the conversation.

    Who the hell are you to tell them who their government should ally with, or to assess how bad their leadership is? Arabs deserve the right to make mistakes with their leaders just like everyone else. Democracy is a process of trial and error.
    So long as they don't attack their neighbors and violate tenants of international law, I am in agreement with you. If they become safe havens for terrorists (a la Hamas and Gaza), there IS a serious problem with that.

    If you acknowledge that the US is self-interested rather than altruistic, then this shouldn't be difficult for you to understand. Imagine that Russia was doing exactly the same type of things in the Middle East that we were, with exactly the same justifications. Suppose that Vladimir Putin started bombing Bahrain, supposedly to protect peaceful protesters from their oppressive government. Would you support his decision, or would you flip out and rant about how evil he was?
    The U.S. started its action in concert with others in Libya at the request of the Arab League and the rebels in Libya. I believe the U.S. policy is influnence BOTH by self-interest and altruism. For one, in some cases altruism is in the national interest in the U.S. I am of the belief that other states commitment to democracy, transparancy and human rights is in the national interest of the United States - altruistic or not.
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  5. #45
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    Re: Obama’s Popularity in Arab World Now Lower than Bush’s

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Well, that is their problem. The non-permanent makeup of the UNSC is spread out throughout the world... there have been times where there have been two Arab members - depending on who the Africans elect.
    It's not anyone's "problem," I'm simply explaining why they don't particularly care what the UNSC says. I mean, how much do *you* respect the UN when it does something you disagree with? I hope to never see you on the bandwagon talking about how ineffective or illegitimate the UN is. Arab concerns with the UN structure are at least as valid as yours if not moreso, since the US and its allies actually do wield considerable power over the body, which is more than can be said of the Arab world.

    Didn't say that. Just raised question as to the cause. I believe it is more a cause of the insurgents not accepting democratic institutions. Otherwise, why are they spending so much time attacking Iraqis, Iraqi infrastructure, Iraqis voting, etc. rather than solely targeting u.S. service personnel?
    They wouldn't be attacking anyone period if not for the US invasion. You can assess for yourself whether Iraq is better or worse now than it was before the war, but it's the height of arrogance to suggest that your view on the issue is better than the people who actually live with the consequences. American actions in Iraq obviously haven't made us too many friends in the region. Rather than chalking that up to how unreasonable and pig-headed the people who live there are, you might consider the possibility that they understand their region, culture, and politics better than you do.

    And I think that so-called laundry list is for the most part not the U.S.'s fault.
    Virtually every item on the list is at least partially America's doing.

    Well, your problem, then.
    The point is that you can't just pick out a few stupid quotes from Ahmadinejad and declare that Iran is a dangerous threat. How seriously would you take it if an Arab or an Iranian picked out a few stupid quotes from Bush and declared that the United States was a threat? This is exactly what I was talking about, when I said that people all over the world often greatly overestimate foreign threats. You are behaving no differently than the Arabs who you label as pigheaded and unreasonable.

    Difference -- Saddam INTENTIONALLY killed innocent civilians... the U.S. it is largely inadvertant...
    I doubt that the families of the people who are being killed really give a damn whether it was intentional or inadvertant, especially when it was done to an advance an agenda they may not agree with in the first place. It's the distinction over whether someone who throws bricks off an overpass is "intentionally" or "inadvertantly" killing people...it really doesn't matter because they were showing reckless disregard for others, for no discernible reason.

    If China started bombing Taiwan and killed someone you care about, would you care if it was intentional or not? Would you even listen to any suggestion that it might have been inadvertant, or would you naturally assume the worst based on your feelings about China?

    and who has killed more civilians, the U.S. or the so-called insurgents?
    In Iraq? I'm really not sure. In the entire Arab world over the last several decades? Definitely the United States. And most of the deaths from the insurgency were ultimately caused by the United States anyway.

    Look, the world isn't perfect. You seem to have the notion that we live in an ideal world. We don't. I would suggest that it was reasonable for us to support some of these scumbags during the Cold War. It isn't nice and pretty, but Realpolitik was reasonable in the global context.
    Listen to yourself. You are justifying totalitarianism, civilian deaths, and occupying foreign countries against their will, under the justification of realpolitik. Read what you just wrote and put those words in the mouth of Vladimir Putin or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, as a justification for THEIR questionable geopolitical decisions. How seriously do you take THOSE arguments?

    Then perhaps you should follow the thread of the conversation.
    I posted that bombing an Arab state probably angers a lot of Arabs, and you posted some irrelevant crap about American partisan politics.

    So long as they don't attack their neighbors and violate tenants of international law, I am in agreement with you. If they become safe havens for terrorists (a la Hamas and Gaza), there IS a serious problem with that.
    The United States has attacked more Middle Eastern countries unprovoked and killed more Arab civilians than anyone else in the last 50 years.

    The U.S. started its action in concert with others in Libya at the request of the Arab League
    ...an entity which is going to need lots of new nametags by the end of the year after the people get through deposing their (mostly) US-backed dictators.

    and the rebels in Libya.
    Who elected them again? Libya is a classic example of the United States sticking its nose where it doesn't belong, bombing Arabs "for their own good," siding with some unknown group of people against a leader it doesn't like, and barely even considering the consequences of its actions. If we go and depose the National Transitional Council in 20 years, I'm quite sure that the President of the US will have found a new group of Libyan allies, who are no doubt fully committed to democracy (i.e. supporting the United States). And the casualties of any war will certainly not be the fault of the United States in any way whatsoever!

    I believe the U.S. policy is influnence BOTH by self-interest and altruism. For one, in some cases altruism is in the national interest in the U.S. I am of the belief that other states commitment to democracy, transparancy and human rights is in the national interest of the United States - altruistic or not.
    Looking at the state of Arab countries and the fact that nearly all of their governments are immensely unpopular, I see no evidence of any altruism on the part of the United States...or even many good results as a byproduct of self-interest.

    As for democracy, transparency, and human rights...I can get behind that. But let's not forget that the United States has been among the biggest opponents of democracy and transparency in the Arab world for many decades, and even today offers (at best) tepid support for these ideals. And as far as human rights go, let's start by correcting the human rights abuses that we actually have some control over (i.e. those which our government is directly responsible for itself).
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-20-11 at 12:17 AM.
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  6. #46
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    Re: Obama’s Popularity in Arab World Now Lower than Bush’s

    Well when your the CIC of the military that is on your land, Im pretty sure your not going be liked by the people on said land. This shouldnt be news to anyone.
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  7. #47
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    Re: Obama’s Popularity in Arab World Now Lower than Bush’s

    The low popularity is just the support of Arabs for Obama's run in 2012..
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    Re: Obama’s Popularity in Arab World Now Lower than Bush’s



    That's why... (for those that don't know a teardrop tattoo is to signify that the person killed someone)

  9. #49
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    Re: Obama’s Popularity in Arab World Now Lower than Bush’s

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    Obama
    Now, if GWB were President, we'd all hear about how killing OBL was a great recruiting tool for AQ, and other such nonsense.
    But The Obama? He's got that big (D) shield next to his name.
    This is good news. I hope Obama's second term is pure hell for him -- every second of it.
    NOTICE: I am not a troll, because what I write I believe, and I have no intention of derailing threads or manipulating human nature. I am not a terrorist, because I do not endorse the killing of innocent people, and I am not here to promote violence. I AM HERE ONLY TO EXPRESS MY PERSONAL OPINION AND ENJOY LIVELY DISCUSSION.

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