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Thread: Rolling back union busting in Ohio

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    Re: Rolling back union busting in Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    sure sure turtle, whatever you say
    "you're wrong, we're right, no matter what".

    Yeah, just keep thinkin' like that. Then again, the vast majority of people think like that.

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    Re: Rolling back union busting in Ohio

    So just out of curiosity...every time this discussion comes up, how come no one loses their damn mind over the New York union cuts?

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    Re: Rolling back union busting in Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    sure sure turtle, whatever you say
    I don't agree with the Turtle on a number of issues, but I read people very well. In my dealings with him, I have found him to be an honest guy. I don't believe he is lying. And what he says is further backed up by my own real life experience:

    From 1974-1975, I worked at Lear-Siegler in Grand Rapids, Michigan, troubleshooting and repairing AYN-1 and DC-130 navigational computers. The union there was the UAW, and I was a member. Union membership was required and automatic. My time at Lear-Siegler was probably the worst experience of my life, so for me, personally, I am anti-union. However, I am very much pro-union for those who want to be in a union. This is capitalism at work, workers exploiting the sweat off their brow, just as companies also exploit it. Samuel Adams, in his writings, gave the right to exploit resources to everybody, not just a select few. And for the government to attempt to stop one group of people from exploiting their own resources (the sweat from their brow) smacks of tactics used by the old Communist Bloc nations. In Poland, it was the unions who threw the Communists out of office. And don't forget that, under Communism, unions were busted down and made illegal, until the unions rose up and did their part to help defeat the Communists. But for me, personally, I don't want to be part of a union.

    And what I have seen in the UAW, while I was in it, is much the same as TD was talking about. I would suggest that, instead of attacking the Turtle with inane phrases, you come up with a thought-out counter argument for what he posted. But I don't think you can, because I don't think those kind of counter arguments actually exist. I might be wrong, though, so why don't you try and see if you can change my mind. It will take a bit more that what you have posted. Actually, it will take a hell of a lot more.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkWizard12
    "you're wrong, we're right, no matter what".
    That cuts both ways.
    Last edited by danarhea; 06-19-11 at 01:03 PM.
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    Re: Rolling back union busting in Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I don't agree with the Turtle on a number of issues, but I read people very well. In my dealings with him, I have found him to be an honest guy. I don't believe he is lying. And what he says is further backed up by my own real life experience:

    From 1974-1975, I worked at Lear-Siegler in Grand Rapids, Michigan, troubleshooting and repairing AYN-1 and DC-130 navigational computers. The union there was the UAW, and I was a member. Union membership was required and automatic. My time at Lear-Siegler was probably the worst experience of my life, so for me, personally, I am anti-union. However, I am very much pro-union for those who want to be in a union. This is capitalism at work, workers exploiting the sweat off their brow, just as companies also exploit it. Samuel Adams, in his writings, gave the right to exploit resources to everybody, not just a select few. And for the government to attempt to stop one group of people from exploiting their own resources (the sweat from their brow) smacks of tactics used by the old Communist Bloc nations. In Poland, it was the unions who threw the Communists out of office. And don't forget that, under Communism, unions were busted down and made illegal, until the unions rose up and did their part to help defeat the Communists. But for me, personally, I don't want to be part of a union.

    And what I have seen in the UAW, while I was in it, is much the same as TD was talking about. I would suggest that, instead of attacking the Turtle with inane phrases, you come up with a thought-out counter argument for what he posted. But I don't think you can, because I don't think that kind of counter arguments actually exists.



    That cuts both ways.
    you are entitled to your opinion, and i've no problem with it, but my take on turtle is quite different....what he told was a 'personal experience' story, one which i have serious doubts about, check that , one which i have no faith in whatsoever. his views on unions, and those who are members of a union, or advocate union posistions, advocate on those issues that affect working people, are well known....anything he says, in my personal opinion, needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt, maybe even the whole great salt lake. i like to think that i can read people well, and the 'read' i get on turtle is the exact opposite of yours.

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    Re: Rolling back union busting in Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    you are entitled to your opinion, and i've no problem with it, but my take on turtle is quite different....what he told was a 'personal experience' story, one which i have serious doubts about, check that , one which i have no faith in whatsoever. his views on unions, and those who are members of a union, or advocate union posistions, advocate on those issues that affect working people, are well known....anything he says, in my personal opinion, needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt, maybe even the whole great salt lake. i like to think that i can read people well, and the 'read' i get on turtle is the exact opposite of yours.
    Be that as it may, Turtle's experience with unions coincides with my own experience with unions. IMHO, he is telling the truth. Now, that is about as much agreement he and I will have on this issue, because we are on opposite ends of the argument. However, I respect his opinion, even if I don't agree with it, and just because he doesn't agree with me is no reason for me to pretty much call him a liar, which he isn't.....

    He is a lawyer, which is worse...... Badaboom
    Last edited by danarhea; 06-19-11 at 01:23 PM.
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    Re: Rolling back union busting in Ohio

    The Unions have built in voter turn out machinations in place, to get this defeated will require enough voters informed as to the fact that if Sb5 goes down, their Representatives got over turned by thuggery.
    There is a simple reason that Public Sector Unions can thrive, unlike in the Private Sector, Government's aren't held to "must make a profit" so Unions can demand more and more and in return they promise to help elect the folks that will keep handing over tax payer monies.

    It's rather disgusting, and one of the reason the AFL-CIO President back in the day before Government Workers were allowed to Unionize scoffed at the idea, why FDR refused to allow it. It's wrong.

    BUT, political greed for power won out, and states are forced to fight the machine of Union Thuggery to regain control over their tax payer monies. I must say it's no shock Public Unions back Democrats.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Rolling back union busting in Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    The Unions have built in voter turn out machinations in place, to get this defeated will require enough voters informed as to the fact that if Sb5 goes down, their Representatives got over turned by thuggery.
    There is a simple reason that Public Sector Unions can thrive, unlike in the Private Sector, Government's aren't held to "must make a profit" so Unions can demand more and more and in return they promise to help elect the folks that will keep handing over tax payer monies.

    It's rather disgusting, and one of the reason the AFL-CIO President back in the day before Government Workers were allowed to Unionize scoffed at the idea, why FDR refused to allow it. It's wrong.

    BUT, political greed for power won out, and states are forced to fight the machine of Union Thuggery to regain control over their tax payer monies. I must say it's no shock Public Unions back Democrats.
    what a load of manure...a group of citizens have decided that they did not like what their elected officials were doing, and took steps to get the issue on the ballot, for a vote by the people.....union thuggery my ass.

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    Re: Rolling back union busting in Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    what a load of manure...a group of citizens have decided that they did not like what their elected officials were doing, and took steps to get the issue on the ballot, for a vote by the people.....union thuggery my ass.
    IT IS Union Thuggery. Who benefits from this ballot measure? Unionized Public Sector Workers. Don't act like this is a group of private citizens outraged at their Representatives. It's not. That's bull It's a group of people who stand to lose political and monetary gains.

    Public Sector Unions get their money from the Tax Payers, they support those politicians that will keep giving them money, and in return they keep those politicians in power.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Rolling back union busting in Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    IT IS Union Thuggery. Who benefits from this ballot measure? Unionized Public Sector Workers. Don't act like this is a group of private citizens outraged at their Representatives. It's not. That's bull It's a group of people who stand to lose political and monetary gains.

    Public Sector Unions get their money from the Tax Payers, they support those politicians that will keep giving them money, and in return they keep those politicians in power.
    are you saying that union members are not citizens? really????

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    Re: Rolling back union busting in Ohio

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    are you saying that union members are not citizens? really????
    No, I didn't say that, strawman. Nice try. These are folks with a direct benefit to be gained by repealing Sb5.

    Some facts for you:

    1. Ohio is facing a $10 billion deficit in 2011.


    2. Ohio’s government workers receive far more pay than their private-sector counterparts.

    The median government worker in Ohio makes 24.6 percent more than his or her private-sector counterpart. An estimated 46 percent of government workers will receive a pay increase this year or next. With Ohio losing more than 600,000 private sector jobs in the last 10 years, it is unsustainable for taxpayers to continue paying government workers at these bloated levels.

    3. Ohio’s state and local government employees’ pensions are severely underfunded.

    A recent study by The Pew Center on the States found that the $3.35 trillion required to pay all the states’ current and retired public sector benefits is underfunded by $1 trillion. For their part, Ohio is the fifth worst state and Cincinnati is the third worst city, underfunded by $20 billion and $4 billion respectfully.

    5. SB5 is a very modest proposal.

    If enacted, public sector unions will still be allowed to exist. Unions would still be allowed to negotiate working conditions and hours but healthcare and sick leave cannot be bargained. SB5 just sets the guidelines on what public sector unions can collective bargain for in Ohio.

    8. A clear conflict of interest exists between politicians and public sector unions.

    Collective bargaining in the public sector means that public employee unions negotiate their salaries and benefits with self-interested politicians. It has given politicians the opportunity to reward their campaign contributors. The Center for Responsive Politics reports that five of the top ten contributors to congressional and presidential campaigns in the past twenty years are labor unions. Half of the top twenty political action committees by total expenditures are unions.

    9. It will limit pay increases to merit-based only.

    SB5 will remove automatic pay increases and introduce a merit-based only system. At a time when Ohioans are struggling to find a job, public servants in secure jobs should at the very least be paid based on how good they are at their jobs.
    Top 10 Reasons to Support SB5 in Ohio to Limit Public Sector Collective Bargaining | FreedomWorks
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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