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Thread: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

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    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Yet we are doing so by trying to destroy public unions.
    this is incorrect. by trying to lessen the power of public sector unions we are attempting to make government bureaucracies less costly and more responsive - which boosts the private sector along with making those governmental functions more efficient. the Union is not the wage-giver in this question, the taxpayer is; and it is he whom the union would tear at.

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    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    this is incorrect. by trying to lessen the power of public sector unions we are attempting to make government bureaucracies less costly and more responsive - which boosts the private sector along with making those governmental functions more efficient. the Union is not the wage-giver in this question, the taxpayer is; and it is he whom the union would tear at.
    Yes, the taxpayer is the wage giver and as I pointed out, their wages have been stagnating for a while now. This is why we should pursue policies that give normal folks a higher wage.

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    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Yes, the taxpayer is the wage giver and as I pointed out, their wages have been stagnating for a while now. This is why we should pursue policies that give normal folks a higher wage.
    ....with some quibbles over the first part, agreeing with the second.

    however, the second requires reducing the cost of governance while increasing its' efficiency. and both those items require reducing the power of public sector unions.

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    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ....with some quibbles over the first part, agreeing with the second.

    however, the second requires reducing the cost of governance while increasing its' efficiency. and both those items require reducing the power of public sector unions.
    It depends on which economic theory one subscribes to. You state your position as if it were fact.

    Personally, I disagree. I think unions are a part of that solution, as well as, fair trade instead of free trade type trade deals with other countries, to reduce safe havens for bringing down worker wages by using inhumane conditions.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-14-11 at 12:53 PM.

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    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Not sure why corporal punishment is being brought up in this thread. We used it because we didn't know of any other efficient way to punish children. I have never hit my kid once in his life and he turned out just fine. Psychological tactics work much better for getting the point across. But I digress...

    The reason why teachers unions are hated is because of teacher tenure. The crappiest of teachers are still entitled to remain on the payroll and the only thing schools can do is shuffle them around with the hope that one of them will get a clue when they land in a new school. The only thing the GOP had to do was make a law to strike down the teacher tenure stipulation so that schools could be empowered to truly fire them. That would solve a big chunk of the problems.

    The answer was not to strip them of all collective bargaining power, but to reform them. Destroying them is not reform and it's only going to create more problems. The GOP just disincentivized people to become teachers in TN, and for current teachers to stay in TN. What is the deal with the GOP's war on public education? Is there some purpose to making America more ignorant? Hmm, gee I wonder.

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    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    It depends on which economic theory one subscribes to. You state your position as if it were fact.
    the notion that we can boost the economy through boosting government spending has been tried not once, but many times, and been found wanting each time. at some point, repeated testing gives you a degree of certainty in a hypothesis.

    Personally, I disagree. I think unions are a part of that solution, as well as, fair trade instead of free trade type trade deals with other countries, to reduce safe havens for bringing down worker wages by using inhumane conditions.
    private sector unions artificially increase the price of specific forms of labor. this decreases the demand for that form of labor, and decreases the demand for labor in general.

    in the public sector, however, unions artificially increase price and demand for their specific form of labor, because the people who make the hiring decisions do not respond to market pressure to allocate resources effeciently, but rather political pressure to get reelected. in this country our teachers are not worried about machinery cutting off limbs in unlit smoky factories where they labor for 16 hours a day - public sector unions are a different animal from their private sector counterparts

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    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the notion that we can boost the economy through boosting government spending has been tried not once, but many times, and been found wanting each time. at some point, repeated testing gives you a degree of certainty in a hypothesis.
    Untrue statement. There are numerous examples in this country and in Europe where is has been shown to do good.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    private sector unions artificially increase the price of specific forms of labor. this decreases the demand for that form of labor, and decreases the demand for labor in general.

    in the public sector, however, unions artificially increase price and demand for their specific form of labor, because the people who make the hiring decisions do not respond to market pressure to allocate resources effeciently, but rather political pressure to get reelected. in this country our teachers are not worried about machinery cutting off limbs in unlit smoky factories where they labor for 16 hours a day - public sector unions are a different animal from their private sector counterparts
    So in other words, you want to keep wages low in order to boost them. I see the absurdity in your stance. The term artificial is a misnomer. If unions change the supply/demand equation, then they do that. However, its just a change in the make up of the market, which is fundamental to capitalism.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-14-11 at 05:31 PM.

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    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    This is why it is so important to understand the basics. Unions make deals with politicians to increase their pay and benefits. We call these politicians democrats. The union members are paid with tax payer dollars. Union members pay mandatory dues to union thugs, I mean leaders. The unions then use the taxpayer dollars to help politicians get elected. We call those politicians democrats. The democrats make deals with the unions to increase their pay and benefits. The union members are paid with taxpayer dollars...
    So eliminating the unions is like cleaning the rats nest out from under your house.
    So Republicans have never made deals with anyone? You have an interesting view of history.

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    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    over the populace yes.
    Teachers aren't people?

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    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Why do you think unions and union movements were so important to the Soviet Union, and democrats alike? Isn't because they stand against merit and achievement?
    You're aware that unions were illegal in Communist countries, right? In fact, it was one of these illegal unions (Solidarity in Poland) that helped start the ball rolling on the collapse of Communism.

    FAIL.

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