Page 10 of 11 FirstFirst ... 891011 LastLast
Results 91 to 100 of 104

Thread: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

  1. #91
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,077

    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Untrue statement. There are numerous examples in this country and in Europe where is has been shown to do good.
    this is incorrect. If you look at every major attempt at fiscal stimulus in the 30 nations of the OECD since 1970, those predicated on increasing government expenditures were the ones that failed.

    in particular, it's worth noting that in nations with higher debt, the multiplier actually ranges between zero and negative.

    So in other words, you want to keep wages low in order to boost them.
    no, i want actual market efficiency to increase growth which drives up wages. artificially increasing somethings' price does not help the market as a whole, it just helps (so long as the government props that item) that particular sector. i want real growth, not a series of bubbles, and not a net-loss redistribution from one sector of the economy to another.

    I see the absurdity in your stance.
    i see wishful thinking and a failure to appreciate unintended consequences in yours

    The term artificial is a misnomer.
    not at all. Unions move the price of their labor from where it would naturally fall. like any price floor, it detracts from demand.

    If unions change the supply/demand equation, then they do that. However, its just a change in the make up of the market, which is fundamental to capitalism.
    yeah. so did encouraging subprime mortgages. remind me again how well that turned out?
    Last edited by cpwill; 06-14-11 at 06:56 PM.

  2. #92
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,077

    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Teachers aren't people?
    teachers are public servants, and education administrators are government bureaucrats. taking from everyone to reward government employees is not a model for helping the populace as a whole, especially when government functions are made less responsive and responsible to that populace.

  3. #93
    Mod Conspiracy Theorist
    rocket88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    A very blue state
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:28 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    31,137

    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    teachers are public servants, and education administrators are government bureaucrats. taking from everyone to reward government employees is not a model for helping the populace as a whole, especially when government functions are made less responsive and responsible to that populace.
    You have a point, and I would definitely admit that at times the union bureaucracy is more self-serving than anything else.

    In essence, the system does indeed need to be reformed. However, it seems to me that killing the union is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's bound to have unintended negative consequences, as essentially it takes power from the union and puts it in the hands of government officials, who also have a tendency to be corruptible.

  4. #94
    Tavern Bartender
    Constitutionalist
    American's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    76,262

    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Teachers aren't people?
    Throwing out strawmen?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  5. #95
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Looking up your source, their bias is pretty evident. Do you have evidence from a neutral source?

    For example, here is a counter analysis from a different source that contradicts your claims.

    Economic Scene - Success of Stimulus Bill Is Noteworthy as Another Is Weighed - NYTimes.com

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    no, i want actual market efficiency to increase growth which drives up wages. artificially increasing somethings' price does not help the market as a whole, it just helps (so long as the government props that item) that particular sector. i want real growth, not a series of bubbles, and not a net-loss redistribution from one sector of the economy to another.
    Which it has failed to do since the late 70s. The last time we have substantial increases in middle class wages was during a more progressive era.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i see wishful thinking and a failure to appreciate unintended consequences in yours
    I am sure you do, but do you have an actual complaint?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    not at all. Unions move the price of their labor from where it would naturally fall. like any price floor, it detracts from demand.
    All unionization does is change the relationship between labor and management, since there is no natural type of relationship, your statement cannot have a basis in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    yeah. so did encouraging subprime mortgages. remind me again how well that turned out?
    You, of course, act as if it was the only or even the major factor in the housing crisis. Nice try.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 06-14-11 at 09:38 PM.

  6. #96
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Huntsville, AL
    Last Seen
    03-03-17 @ 10:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    13,813

    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Yeah, you did and I'm trying to figure out what you're talking about. The government doesn't force ME to labor for the benefit of others or anyone else I know, so what is the government forcing you to do?
    Are you forced to turn over about 40% of the wealth you create to government? I am. If I refuse I will go to jail. And you would too.

  7. #97
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Huntsville, AL
    Last Seen
    03-03-17 @ 10:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    13,813

    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Yet we are doing so by trying to destroy public unions.
    I am completely for destroying public sector unions. They are dangerous to the taxpayer.

  8. #98
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Last Seen
    11-17-17 @ 12:48 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    19,610

    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Are you forced to turn over about 40% of the wealth you create to government? I am. If I refuse I will go to jail. And you would too.
    So you're saying that the "government forces me to labor for the benefit of others" = "i have to pay taxes". That's ridiculous - taxes aren't a charity, they are paid in exchange for labor and services. Welcome to civilization. What a ridiculous thing to say.

  9. #99
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Huntsville, AL
    Last Seen
    03-03-17 @ 10:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    13,813

    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    So you're saying that the "government forces me to labor for the benefit of others" = "i have to pay taxes". That's ridiculous - taxes aren't a charity, they are paid in exchange for labor and services. Welcome to civilization. What a ridiculous thing to say.
    If you choose to wear your chains proudly I shall happily allow it. But don't thing that because you wear your chains easily that I intend to remain chained. When the government returns to its Constitutional limits I will happily pay an appropriate amount of my wealth in taxes. Until then, do not expect me to go quietly into the night.

  10. #100
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,077

    Re: Tennessee Trumps Wiconsin: Kills Teacher Collective Bargaining. Dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    In essence, the system does indeed need to be reformed. However, it seems to me that killing the union is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
    no need to kill unions and i'm unaware of anyone who argues that we need to. the market provides a perfect disciplining mechanism for those portions that need reform - any union that overburdens its' business to the point where it becomes uncompetitive will suffer job losses when that business goes under.

    assuming, of course, that the Obama Administration doesn't steal said business from the bondholders, prop it up for a year, and then give it to said union.

    however, this mechanism does not exist inside of government - where abuse tends to grow over time rather than be killed off by competition. government functions more like evolution in reverse - the more bloated you become, the more you receive. Public Sector unions are thus rewarded for abusing their employer (us) to a degree never imagined by their private sector counterparts.

    It's bound to have unintended negative consequences, as essentially it takes power from the union and puts it in the hands of government officials, who also have a tendency to be corruptible.
    all humans are corruptible. however, elected officials have a discipline mechanism to punish failure - they can be easily fired by their constituents. so, given that both officials and unions will be corruptible, I'd prefer the actor whose incentives are to provide the greatest education for the least cost possible and who has a discipline mechanism to force him from failure.

Page 10 of 11 FirstFirst ... 891011 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •