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Thread: The results are in on social security

  1. #291
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    Re: The results are in on social security

    Quote Originally Posted by donc View Post
    I don’t know, I think we could get a few conservative aboard with cutting military bases in Europe and letting them protect themselves.
    I sure as hell would support that!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: The results are in on social security

    LOL, imagine that, the GOP criticizes Obama for wanting to do what a majority of Americans want him to do, eliminate tax breaks for the wealthy and cut spending to reduce the deficit! Shocking I tell you, shocking!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: The results are in on social security

    bowles-simpson---ignored

    the president's plan---ninety seven to ZERO

    LOL!

    the bush/obama/clinton/boehner/mcconnell tax cuts:

    Obama Calls Tax Cuts the 'Right Thing to Do'

    At Obama's side, Clinton backs tax deal - politics - White House - msnbc.com

    if you're not aboard you're a splinter
    Last edited by The Prof; 07-13-11 at 04:20 AM.

  4. #294
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    Re: The results are in on social security

    Quote Originally Posted by donc View Post
    We’ll let the readers decide if what you posted was taken out of context or not.

    The post of mine that you were responding to.




    Your post.



    Your post with the first sentence added.


    <Almost all of these balances are invested in Treasury securities and earn interest. Therefore, they effectively represent the value, in current dollars, of taxes and user fees that have been paid in advance for future benefits and services.>

    They do not consist of real economic assets that can be drawn down in the future to fund benefits. Instead, they are claims on the Treasury that, when redeemed, will have to be financed by raising taxes, borrowing from the public, or reducing benefits or other expenditures.

    now the following

    [U][B]

    <Instead, they are claims on the Treasury that, when redeemed, will have to be financed by raising taxes, borrowing from the public, or reducing benefits or other expenditures. The existence of large trust fund balances, therefore, does not, by itself, have any impact on the Government’s ability to pay benefits. >
    there you go - highlighted the relevant section for you.

    again, like I have been saying from the beginning. for Social Security's Trust Fund to mean anything, the rest of the Government (the General Budget) would have to run massive surpluses sufficient to cover those "securities" with extra cash. the General Budget, however, also has to pay for things like Medicare, Obamacare, and the million odd-other things whose costs are exploding to the point where we are running nearly trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see.

    you know how everyone is freaking out right now about the debt ceiling, and what it means if we don't raise it?

    all of the cuts that we would have to impose if we never raised the debt ceiling......

    .....wouldn't even give us one penny to pay back to the Social Security Trust Fund. We would have to cut more than 40% of current spending just to break even BEFORE we could even consider figuring out how to pay the Social Security Trust Fund.

    Kinda looks to me like you were being just a teeney bit dishonest with that post.
    then you will have to take it up with the Office of Management and Budget, the Social Security Trustees, the Congressional Budget Office, the Medicare and Medicaid Actuaries, and even now President Obama; because they all agree that there is literally no possible way to pay for our entitlements as they are currently structured.

    So tell me how your post has shown that United States Government issued Treasury bonds are smoke and mirrors.
    these aren't Treasury Bonds; they can't be traded, bought, or sold. They are internal securities, IOU's. We took money out of our savings account, put it in our checking account, spent it, and made a note to one day pay back the savings. That sticky note is not a dollar. It's an internal memo. As the OMB says (again) that note, held by the Trust Fund "does not consist of a real economic asset".

    Show me where we don’t have to pay the holders of what Social Security invests its surpluses in? Treasury bonds.
    1. (again) they aren't treasury bonds. they are worthless in and of themselves. it's an IOU note.
    2. if, however, you would like to receive these pieces of paper in lieu of actual dollars when your own SS comes due, I urge you to write the Trust Fund and ask for this form of payment. You will find out quickly how much they are worth.
    3. you don't have a right to any Social Security payment. Congress can (and will) alter the payment structure to reflect our fiscal reality. in reality land, the Government does not have an extra $17 Trillion lying around. it has negative $14.5 Trillion. The amount of money you would need for the United States Government to be able to fully fund Social Security is larger than the GDP of the United States and every nation in the European Union combined. JUST Social Security - that is assuming no Medicare.

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    Re: The results are in on social security

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    there you go - highlighted the relevant section for you.

    again, like I have been saying from the beginning. for Social Security's Trust Fund to mean anything, the rest of the Government (the General Budget) would have to run massive surpluses sufficient to cover those "securities" with extra cash. the General Budget, however, also has to pay for things like Medicare, Obamacare, and the million odd-other things whose costs are exploding to the point where we are running nearly trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see.

    you know how everyone is freaking out right now about the debt ceiling, and what it means if we don't raise it?

    all of the cuts that we would have to impose if we never raised the debt ceiling......

    .....wouldn't even give us one penny to pay back to the Social Security Trust Fund. We would have to cut more than 40% of current spending just to break even BEFORE we could even consider figuring out how to pay the Social Security Trust Fund.



    then you will have to take it up with the Office of Management and Budget, the Social Security Trustees, the Congressional Budget Office, the Medicare and Medicaid Actuaries, and even now President Obama; because they all agree that there is literally no possible way to pay for our entitlements as they are currently structured.



    these aren't Treasury Bonds; they can't be traded, bought, or sold. They are internal securities, IOU's. We took money out of our savings account, put it in our checking account, spent it, and made a note to one day pay back the savings. That sticky note is not a dollar. It's an internal memo. As the OMB says (again) that note, held by the Trust Fund "does not consist of a real economic asset".



    1. (again) they aren't treasury bonds. they are worthless in and of themselves. it's an IOU note.
    2. if, however, you would like to receive these pieces of paper in lieu of actual dollars when your own SS comes due, I urge you to write the Trust Fund and ask for this form of payment. You will find out quickly how much they are worth.
    3. you don't have a right to any Social Security payment. Congress can (and will) alter the payment structure to reflect our fiscal reality. in reality land, the Government does not have an extra $17 Trillion lying around. it has negative $14.5 Trillion. The amount of money you would need for the United States Government to be able to fully fund Social Security is larger than the GDP of the United States and every nation in the European Union combined. JUST Social Security - that is assuming no Medicare.
    From the link and your post,

    They do not consist of real economic assets that can be drawn down in the future to fund benefits.
    [/B]

    Let stretch this second sentence out a bit and see if it fits on with what I have been saying in this thread..


    Instead, they are claims on the Treasury that, when redeemed,
    (Yep, when redeemed, another word for paid, that fits in.)

    will have to be financed by raising taxes, borrowing from the public,
    (Whatever, you owe us the bucks, we paid into SS all of our working lives, do what you gotta do. Remember, you owed us before you owed China,Japan,the Saudis…all of the rest of the payday loan companies.)


    or reducing benefits or other expenditures.
    (I guess we could look at this after we checked out how removing the cap and the above tweaks panned out.)

    I ask you once again… Show me where we don’t have to pay the holders of what Social Security invests its surpluses in? Treasury bonds.

    Do you have anything other than your questionable opinion for an answer?
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: The results are in on social security

    These Aren't Treasury Bonds. If they were, for example, the President wouldn't be threatning that he can't send out Social Security Checks - because that would be considered part of the National Debt that cannot be defaulted on. Social Security would get paid first along with all of the "other" bondholders.

    Treasury Bonds = real economic assets. IOU's in the "trust fund" = not real economic assets. All they are is an IOU.

    in order to pay those IOU's, however, the government would have to have more money than we are ever going to get. it is literally impossible to pay those IOU's.

    but you tell me. how do you propose to turn a 1.5 trillion deficit into a trillion dollar surplus?

    and no, Social Security does not have to be paid. The Supreme Court has already ruled on that - you have no "right" to your benefits.
    Last edited by cpwill; 07-14-11 at 12:46 AM.

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    Re: The results are in on social security

    kinda looks like President Clinton's ex secretary of labor has the social security problem figured out.



    < Back in 1983, the ceiling was set so the Social Security payroll tax would hit 90 percent of all wages covered by Social Security. That 90 percent figure was built into the Greenspan Commission’s fixes. The Commission assumed that, as the ceiling rose with inflation, the Social Security payroll tax would continue to hit 90 percent of total income.>


    <Today, though, the Social Security payroll tax hits only about 84 percent of total income.>

    <If we want to go back to 90 percent, the ceiling on income subject to the Social Security tax would need to be raised to $180,000.>


    <Presto. Social Security’s long-term (beyond 26 years from now) problem would be solved.>

    Robert Reich (The Only Social Security Reform Worth Considering: Raising the Ceiling on Income Subject to It)
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: The results are in on social security

    Quote Originally Posted by donc View Post
    kinda looks like President Clinton's ex secretary of labor has the social security problem figured out.



    < Back in 1983, the ceiling was set so the Social Security payroll tax would hit 90 percent of all wages covered by Social Security. That 90 percent figure was built into the Greenspan Commission’s fixes. The Commission assumed that, as the ceiling rose with inflation, the Social Security payroll tax would continue to hit 90 percent of total income.>


    <Today, though, the Social Security payroll tax hits only about 84 percent of total income.>

    <If we want to go back to 90 percent, the ceiling on income subject to the Social Security tax would need to be raised to $180,000.>


    <Presto. Social Security’s long-term (beyond 26 years from now) problem would be solved.>

    Robert Reich (The Only Social Security Reform Worth Considering: Raising the Ceiling on Income Subject to It)
    Exactly! There is no no SS crisis:

    "Social Security isn’t responsible for the federal deficit. Just the opposite. Until last year Social Security took in more payroll taxes than it paid out in benefits. It lent the surpluses to the rest of the government."
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #299
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    Re: The results are in on social security

    Quote Originally Posted by donc View Post
    will have to be financed by raising taxes, borrowing from the public,[/B] (Whatever, you owe us the bucks, we paid into SS all of our working lives, do what you gotta do. Remember, you owed us before you owed China,Japan,the Saudis…all of the rest of the payday loan companies.)
    You owe yourselves the bucks. You paid into SS and then squandered it on other programs.

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    Re: The results are in on social security

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Exactly! There is no no SS crisis:

    "Social Security isn’t responsible for the federal deficit. Just the opposite. Until last year Social Security took in more payroll taxes than it paid out in benefits. It lent the surpluses to the rest of the government."
    I think you have your head in the sand. The money is gone. It was replaced by IOUs. We can never make it up. The Ponzi scheme is collapsing.

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