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Venezuela Rejects US Sanctions, Evaluates Oil Supply to US

Bush... when he orchestrated an international Iranian nuclear crisis panic when they were a decade from getting the bomb. :lol:
 
SE102 said:
Bush... when he orchestrated an international Iranian nuclear crisis panic when they were a decade from getting the bomb. :lol:
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He was right then and hes right now...the only difference now is that they are alot closer to getting the bomb...Iran is not our friend we need to get that in our heads
 
SE102 said:
proof... other than every time the people down south start stirring it is something born of the devil.

And if you think Chavez took himself literally or seriously in saying capitalism ended life on mars you need to re-evaluate what your thinking.
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Are you being discriminatory against people who live in the Southern US? Did I ever say Venezuela or Chavez were "born of the devil"?

Chavez is an idiot. Regardless of if he took himself seriously or not, his comments were very moronic and only displayed his irrational arrogance and ignorance.
 
digsbe said:
Chavez is an idiot.
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I can tell this isn't going anywhere. Chavez said what he said about mars out of the socialist ideological point that capitalism would lead to consumption of all resources until self destruction of the hypothetical civilization. But when you cut and paste and slap it on a newspaper and toss it around the blogosphere you can make anyone seem like an idiot.
 
SE102 said:
proof...
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Like an OAS report?

Press Release No.20-10 - IACHR Publishes Report on Venezuela
In the report's conclusions, the Commission finds that political intolerance; the lack of independence of the branches of the State in dealing with the executive; constraints on freedom of expression and the right to protest peaceably; the existence of a climate hostile to the free exercise of dissenting political participation and to monitoring activities on the part of human rights organizations; citizen insecurity; violent acts perpetrated against persons deprived of their liberty, trade union members, women, and campesinos; and, above all, the prevailing impunity affecting cases of human rights violations are factors that contribute to the weakening of the rule of law and democracy in Venezuela and that have resulted in serious restrictions to the full enjoyment of the human rights guaranteed in the American Convention on Human Rights.
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Venezuela's not Nazi Germany, but it's not the land of milk, honey and fluffy pink unicorns either.
 
SE102 said:
I can tell this isn't going anywhere. Chavez said what he said about mars out of the socialist ideological point that capitalism would lead to consumption of all resources until self destruction of the hypothetical civilization. But when you cut and paste and slap it on a newspaper and toss it around the blogosphere you can make anyone seem like an idiot.
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Suggesting that is foolish. Chavez is a demagogue who seems to only care about keeping his power over the nation of Venezuela. I'm sure most who agree and support Chavez would have problems if some redneck leader of some country said socialism killed life on Mars by ensuring that everyone lived in equal poverty which resulted in the mass starvation of the LGM. It would be just as moronic. Venezuela funds terrorist groups in Colombia that are constantly kidnapping, killing, and trafficking drugs. They should be sanctioned.
 
Suggesting that is foolish. Chavez is a demagogue who seems to only care about keeping his power over the nation of Venezuela.
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Except for the whole getting elected 7 times part in free and fair elections... and allowing an *cough* American supported opposition of white upper class folks to get elected to their government.


I'm sure most who agree and support Chavez would have problems if some redneck leader of some country said socialism killed life on Mars by ensuring that
everyone lived in equal poverty which resulted in the mass starvation of the LGM. It would be just as moronic.
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One would be valid according to the socialist take on capitalism, another would be an invalid take on socialism...

Venezuela funds terrorist groups in Colombia that are constantly kidnapping, killing, and trafficking drugs. They should be sanctioned.
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Why hasn't action been taken on it? Do you have evidence they are lending them support? Sounds like it would be hard to come by through more than hearsay...
 
SE102 said:
Except for the whole getting elected 7 times part in free and fair elections... and allowing an *cough* American supported opposition of white upper class folks to get elected to their government.
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The dude altered the Venezuelan Constitution in order to be elected as many times as he wants. It's all about power. To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if the elections were fraudulent. Chavez has his political opposition jailed or "disappear" like some thug.

One would be valid according to the socialist take on capitalism, another would be an invalid take on socialism...
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So you're saying comments regarding capitalism destroying life on Mars is valid, but extreme rhetoric of socialism is invalid? It's all demagoguery and neither example is valid or logical.
Why hasn't action been taken on it? Do you have evidence they are lending them support? Sounds like it would be hard to come by through more than hearsay...
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Venezuela Wanted FARC to Act as Hit Men, RealClearWorld - The Compass Blog The FARC is one of the terrorist organizations that engage in guerrilla warfare and terrorism in Colombia. It's pretty evident that Venezuela funds them and may even use them as hit men to kill political opponents in Venezuela. Colombia has also accused Venezuela of funding this terrorist organization.

In Venezuela do you really think that political opposition is free and has a right to challenge Chavez? Political opponents are crushed by an abuse of state power at the hands of the Chavez regime. He's nothing more than a socialist dictator who uses thug tactics to crush opposition.
 
To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if the elections were fraudulent. Chavez has his political opposition jailed or "disappear" like some thug.
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They're monitored elections... and alot of the opposition are doing things like planning coups and assasinations. But they get the 'opposition' card.

So you're saying comments regarding capitalism destroying life on Mars is valid, but extreme rhetoric of socialism is invalid? It's all demagoguery and neither example is valid or logical.
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It'd be a long convo as to why the analogies are different.

In Venezuela do you really think that political opposition is free and has a right to challenge Chavez? Political opponents are crushed by an abuse of state power at the hands of the Chavez regime. He's nothing more than a socialist dictator who uses thug tactics to crush opposition.
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Why is there opposition representation in the government then? They made some pretty big gains.
 
Venezuela is tanking under Chavez...

Democracy Index: Venezuela (2010) - #96 of 167
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Economic Freedom Score: Venezuela (2011) - #175 of 179
South America/Central America/Caribbean region: #28 out of 29
http://www.heritage.org/index/country/venezuela

World Press Freedom Index: Venezuela (2010) - #133 of 178
http://english.eluniversal.com/2010/10/21/en_pol_esp_venezuela-drops-nine_21A4636051.shtml

Corruption Perception Index: Venezuela (2010) #164 of 178
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
 
The US sanctions do not affect Venezuela’s supply of oil to the United States, as clearly the Obama administration would not want to directly affect its own interests. Nor do the sanctions apply to PDVSA subsidiaries, such as CITGO, a US corporation owned by PDVSA which has seven oil refineries and over 10,000 gas stations throughout the United States.
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The absence of a credible policy and meaningful work toward policy options (alternatives and expansion of conventional sources in the U.S. and elsewhere) has deprived the U.S. of a share of strategic flexibility when it comes to foreign policy. The delberate choices of past Administrations and the current one have amounted to a self-imposed constraint on its flexibility.

It will be interesting to see if Venezuela attempts to exploit the U.S. Achilles Heel that has resulted from its lack of credible energy policy to try to push back on the sanctions. My guess is that it won't, as I don't think its government is willing to suffer the pain of meaningful production cuts. But down the road when demand for oil is notably higher than it is today, the risk of such a move from some country during a policy conflict will increase markedly as resource nationalism gains in force. Energy resources and rare earth minerals (another area in which not just the U.S. government is doing little, but also private firms are not trying to innovate to develop/find substitutes to reduce dependence on such minerals) are two areas where resource nationalism could be most likely to gain strength. Of course, the U.S./West might still have some moves to blunt efforts to engage in such practices e.g., if it maintains an edge in food production, agreements with linkage to food and access to energy resources/rare earth minerals could offer one mechanism to reduce the threat. However, such agreements would not be able to overcome the limits imposed by scarcity, which could impose a cap of sorts of the production of certain items/services that rely on those two categories. Hence, the better approach would entail developing/finding substitutes for the two categories to maximize strategic flexibility.
 
Che said:
Israel comes in at 132.:lol:
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You need to consider the totality of the evidence. Cherry-picking a single item on which Israel is weaker neither disproves the point Tashah was making about the Chavez regime's ruinous outcomes nor the quality of life enjoyed in Israel.
 
donsutherland1 said:
You need to consider the totality of the evidence. Cherry-picking a single item on which Israel is weaker neither disproves the point Tashah was making about the Chavez regime's ruinous outcomes nor the quality of life enjoyed in Israel.
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They are not weaker they came in at 132 which is one better than Venezuela.It just proves on that front that Israel is very bad indeed but I do not see Tashah bitching about that fact.
 
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I have been to many South American countries (Brazil, Peru, Chile, Venezuela, Argentina) and I can't mention one country that looked worse than Venezuela.

Caracas was just one huge slum. The relative poverty rate may not be that high if everyone is poor. There was thousands of employees at the airport, but none of them could speak English, and they were not working. They were just employed to reduce the unemployment rate. 80% of the city was a huge slum, and it would be life-threatning to walk outside the city centre areas and tourist areas, that are protected with guards. This is also reflected in crime statistics, their murder rate is 160 per 100K. Caracas in Venezuela tops list of murder capitals of the world | Mail Online

If we compare compare murder rate of South American countries then we get
Venezuela 49 (offical) 65 (unoffical)
Colombia 35
Brazil 22
Ecuador 19
Paraguay 12
Bolivia 11
Uruguay 5.8
Argentina 5.5
Peru 3.2
Chile 1.7

Also, now the economy in Venezuela is going down while the rest of South America is growing. Venezuela should be the richest country in South America because it has lots of oil. Also Venezuela was a developed country back in the days and was one of the riches countries in the world. There is nothing impressive about Venezuela.

I also think it is funny that liberals call the opposition right wing extremists. I ask, which party is the right wing extremists. Right now it is between Hugo Chavez and everyone else which includes. Democratic Action and COPEI (which held power from 1958 to 1998); the left groups Movement for Socialism, Radical Cause and Red Flag Party; and more recently established parties Project Venezuela, A New Era, Justice First and For Social Democrac. Doesn't sound like right-wing extremists in my ears. In fact back in the days Democratic Action was the left wing alternative against COPEI, and they won most of the elections.

Venezuela is a classical failure of left-wing politics. But somehow some liberals tend to think that Venezuela was taken over by imperalists who took all the resources and then Hugo Chavez came and saved the day.
 
Jeezy said:
Seriously.



I'd love to hear it.

Forgive me for jumping to conclusions but does it go something like "...evil corporate interests were the ones who provoked the Bolivarian revolution with their callous disregard for the common man. Chavez might be a little crazy but he's improving Venezuela, and of course he hates America because of the evil corporations that were here!" Am I totally off base? Because, admittedly, I might be.

Also, the theory that "if oil prices had not dropped, Venezuelans living conditions would not have plummeted and the revolution would not have happened" is pretty mainstream scholastic thought, so you can't call me an apologist.



That's not something I disagree with.



...so Chavez gets a mulligan because he's ignorant?



The Fedecámaras are what they are -- a group representing big business. I'm not going to debate whether they are saints or sinners, because the truth probably lies somewhere in between. But if Chavez is such a righteous anti-corporate crusader, would you care to explain to me why he burns the candle at both ends and ALSO represses the Confederación de Trabajadores de Venezuela? That's a labor union, not a corporation. Are they ALSO trying to get their land and their factories back? The International Labour Organisation and International Confederation of Free Trade Unions panned Chavez's interference in the Confederación. Are they also playing the "evil socialist" game? It's not a question of how he treats corporations and, if you look at my previous posts, it never was (...hell, Mossadegh did the same thing in Iran and I will OPENLY admit that killing him was a mistake). I merely said that the PDVSA was nationalized and, since 2002, has represented the will of the government. It's a question of how he treats people, and what his foreign policy goals are. More on that below.

(Also, I am assuming you know of all the groups I just mentioned, since you have asserted your knowledge of Venezuelan history.)



Attempted to destabilize the legitimate government of Alvaro Uribe by sponsoring the Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia, a terrorist group that kills civilians, smuggles cocaine, uses child soldiers. For what purpose? Why, to spread the Bolivarian revolution!

Is this ringing any bells yet?



Well in that case, you should be able to plainly see that I am not playing the "evil socialist" game.
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Ok, just jumping to convulsions.

That'll teach me to do drivebys.

Not that much difference. More amoral owners failing to respond to the economic situation well. Chavez has gone downhill from what I've seen, doesn't accept challenges to his power well. Columbia is about as bad as the revolutionaries and serves as a US agent in the region.

People are sh*tty.

One encounters so much unconsidered cookie cutter nonsense its easy to go off half cocked. My bad.:2wave:
 
SE102 said:
I know what I'm talking to now.

Firstly poverty was half or more of the population before Chavez, it has some little to do with oil prices as it directly funds the Bolivarian missions. The literacy missions, and medical missions have been a relative success, smashing in some aspects.

...

Issue some damning proof.
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Proof? Okay. Wiki. The entry is "Presidency of Hugo Chavez." The sources cited are Edgardo Lander's, "Venezuela's Social Conflict in a Global Context" and Michael McCaughan's, "The Battle of Venezuela."

The 1970s were boom years for oil, during which the material standard of living for all classes in Venezuela improved. This was partly due to the ruling AD and COPEI parties' investing in social welfare projects which, because of the government's oil income, they could do without heavily taxing private wealth.[3] "Venezuelan workers enjoyed the highest wages in Latin America and subsidies in food, health, education and transport."[4] However, "toward the end of the 1970s, these tendencies began to reverse themselves."[5] Per capita oil income and per capita income both declined, leading to a foreign debt crisis and forced devaluation of the bolivar in 1983.[5] The negative trend continued through the 1990s. "Per capita income in 1997 was 8 percent less than in 1970; workers' income during this period was reduced by approximately half."[5] "Between 1984 and 1995 the percentage of people living below the poverty line jumped from 36 percent to 66 percent, while the number of people suffering from extreme poverty tripled, from 11 percent to 36 percent."[6]
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So let's review...oil prices high; Venezuelan workers are well paid and social welfare projects are on schedule. Oil prices go down, country enters economic depression, lower class turns ugly, upper class hides in mansions, yadda yadda...Chavez wins election. Oil prices go back up, Venezuela begins improving again.

But yeah. Sure. It's the misiones. Never mind that Venezuela's Gini coefficient increased from 2000 to 2005, suggesting rising economic inequality. Never mind that, according to Alfredo Keller y Asocioados, only 22% of Venezuelans think poverty has improved under Chavez. The reason he gets re-elected is the economic growth --- but again, that's because of surging oil prices. Same reason why United Russia is still in power.

Umm, I'm talking about the American led bit of the coup. But the PDVSA aspect of it is interesting, now that they're fired the nationalized oil sector actually operates under the government.
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Well, what you were talking about was not imposing sanctions on a body that helped us. I merely argued that it's not the same people at the top.

Repressive dictator? You sound like my crazy Venezuelan grandma. Funny that.
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You should listen to your grandma.


Oh also @What If...

:cool:

TheDemSocialist said:
Ok. Repressive? Repressive on what?
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Let's see...firing tear gas at anti-Chavez student protesters, sponsoring a terrorist organization that rapes, pillages, murders, and sells cocaine to the United States...unplugging those numerous media opposition outlets when it is convenient for him...oh and this...http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=351351&CategoryId=10717

...and this...

venezuela%20demonstrators%201.jpg


If you'd like to argue as to the DEGREE of repression, we can do that. But let's not pretend like it doesn't exist, please.

Also...the man openly gutted Venezuela's main labor union! Like I said, the ILO openly panned him for it! Shouldn't you as a "Democratic Socialist" be condemning him too??
 
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This is a mistake. The U.S. has no credibility going after Venezuela while its face is still sticky from sucking off Saudi Arabia, especially on such a pathetic "refining gasoline" pretext. We need oil and there is no benefit to endangering our supply with nothing to gain in return. I am no fan of Chavez, but we deal with far worse to get our supply of oil.
 
rathi said:
This is a mistake. The U.S. has no credibility going after Venezuela while its face is still sticky from sucking off Saudi Arabia, especially on such a pathetic "refining gasoline" pretext. We need oil and there is no benefit to endangering our supply with nothing to gain in return. I am no fan of Chavez, but we deal with far worse to get our supply of oil.
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I believe it was SE102 who posted this quote back on page one.

The State Department clarified that in the case of PDVSA, the sanctions “prohibit the company from competing for US government procurement contracts, from securing financing from the Export-Import Bank of the United States, and from obtaining US export licenses”. The US sanctions do not affect Venezuela’s supply of oil to the United States, as clearly the Obama administration would not want to directly affect its own interests. Nor do the sanctions apply to PDVSA subsidiaries, such as CITGO, a US corporation owned by PDVSA which has seven oil refineries and over 10,000 gas stations throughout the United States.
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Jeezy said:
I believe it was SE102 who posted this quote back on page one.
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That operates under the false assumption that Chavez won't retaliate. He doesn't lack motivation and given his control over oil, he probably has the means as well. Aggressive actions like sanctions have consequences.
 
I'm pretty sure the sanctions are against these oil companies for doing business with Iran :doh
 
rathi said:
That operates under the false assumption that Chavez won't retaliate. He doesn't lack motivation and given his control over oil, he probably has the means as well. Aggressive actions like sanctions have consequences.
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It operates under the likely assumption that Chavez won't retaliate, aside from some rhetoric at home. He makes far too much money selling oil at discount prices to the Northeast to jeopardize that now -- with American blessings, I might add. This is merely a symbolic gesture meant to say, "Don't get any ideas with Iran." That's why the sanctions are so ginger. If we were really operating under the assumption that he won't retaliate, we'd just give him the Cuba treatment.
 
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