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Thread: Venezuela Rejects US Sanctions, Evaluates Oil Supply to US

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    Re: Venezuela Rejects US Sanctions, Evaluates Oil Supply to US

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    You need to consider the totality of the evidence. Cherry-picking a single item on which Israel is weaker neither disproves the point Tashah was making about the Chavez regime's ruinous outcomes nor the quality of life enjoyed in Israel.
    They are not weaker they came in at 132 which is one better than Venezuela.It just proves on that front that Israel is very bad indeed but I do not see Tashah bitching about that fact.
    “If you tremble indignation at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine.”

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    Re: Venezuela Rejects US Sanctions, Evaluates Oil Supply to US

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    Re: Venezuela Rejects US Sanctions, Evaluates Oil Supply to US

    I have been to many South American countries (Brazil, Peru, Chile, Venezuela, Argentina) and I can't mention one country that looked worse than Venezuela.

    Caracas was just one huge slum. The relative poverty rate may not be that high if everyone is poor. There was thousands of employees at the airport, but none of them could speak English, and they were not working. They were just employed to reduce the unemployment rate. 80% of the city was a huge slum, and it would be life-threatning to walk outside the city centre areas and tourist areas, that are protected with guards. This is also reflected in crime statistics, their murder rate is 160 per 100K. Caracas in Venezuela tops list of murder capitals of the world | Mail Online

    If we compare compare murder rate of South American countries then we get
    Venezuela 49 (offical) 65 (unoffical)
    Colombia 35
    Brazil 22
    Ecuador 19
    Paraguay 12
    Bolivia 11
    Uruguay 5.8
    Argentina 5.5
    Peru 3.2
    Chile 1.7

    Also, now the economy in Venezuela is going down while the rest of South America is growing. Venezuela should be the richest country in South America because it has lots of oil. Also Venezuela was a developed country back in the days and was one of the riches countries in the world. There is nothing impressive about Venezuela.

    I also think it is funny that liberals call the opposition right wing extremists. I ask, which party is the right wing extremists. Right now it is between Hugo Chavez and everyone else which includes. Democratic Action and COPEI (which held power from 1958 to 1998); the left groups Movement for Socialism, Radical Cause and Red Flag Party; and more recently established parties Project Venezuela, A New Era, Justice First and For Social Democrac. Doesn't sound like right-wing extremists in my ears. In fact back in the days Democratic Action was the left wing alternative against COPEI, and they won most of the elections.

    Venezuela is a classical failure of left-wing politics. But somehow some liberals tend to think that Venezuela was taken over by imperalists who took all the resources and then Hugo Chavez came and saved the day.

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    Re: Venezuela Rejects US Sanctions, Evaluates Oil Supply to US

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Seriously.



    I'd love to hear it.

    Forgive me for jumping to conclusions but does it go something like "...evil corporate interests were the ones who provoked the Bolivarian revolution with their callous disregard for the common man. Chavez might be a little crazy but he's improving Venezuela, and of course he hates America because of the evil corporations that were here!" Am I totally off base? Because, admittedly, I might be.

    Also, the theory that "if oil prices had not dropped, Venezuelans living conditions would not have plummeted and the revolution would not have happened" is pretty mainstream scholastic thought, so you can't call me an apologist.



    That's not something I disagree with.



    ...so Chavez gets a mulligan because he's ignorant?



    The Fedecámaras are what they are -- a group representing big business. I'm not going to debate whether they are saints or sinners, because the truth probably lies somewhere in between. But if Chavez is such a righteous anti-corporate crusader, would you care to explain to me why he burns the candle at both ends and ALSO represses the Confederación de Trabajadores de Venezuela? That's a labor union, not a corporation. Are they ALSO trying to get their land and their factories back? The International Labour Organisation and International Confederation of Free Trade Unions panned Chavez's interference in the Confederación. Are they also playing the "evil socialist" game? It's not a question of how he treats corporations and, if you look at my previous posts, it never was (...hell, Mossadegh did the same thing in Iran and I will OPENLY admit that killing him was a mistake). I merely said that the PDVSA was nationalized and, since 2002, has represented the will of the government. It's a question of how he treats people, and what his foreign policy goals are. More on that below.

    (Also, I am assuming you know of all the groups I just mentioned, since you have asserted your knowledge of Venezuelan history.)



    Attempted to destabilize the legitimate government of Alvaro Uribe by sponsoring the Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia, a terrorist group that kills civilians, smuggles cocaine, uses child soldiers. For what purpose? Why, to spread the Bolivarian revolution!

    Is this ringing any bells yet?



    Well in that case, you should be able to plainly see that I am not playing the "evil socialist" game.
    Ok, just jumping to convulsions.

    That'll teach me to do drivebys.

    Not that much difference. More amoral owners failing to respond to the economic situation well. Chavez has gone downhill from what I've seen, doesn't accept challenges to his power well. Columbia is about as bad as the revolutionaries and serves as a US agent in the region.

    People are sh*tty.

    One encounters so much unconsidered cookie cutter nonsense its easy to go off half cocked. My bad.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Venezuela Rejects US Sanctions, Evaluates Oil Supply to US

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    I know what I'm talking to now.

    Firstly poverty was half or more of the population before Chavez, it has some little to do with oil prices as it directly funds the Bolivarian missions. The literacy missions, and medical missions have been a relative success, smashing in some aspects.

    ...

    Issue some damning proof.
    Proof? Okay. Wiki. The entry is "Presidency of Hugo Chavez." The sources cited are Edgardo Lander's, "Venezuela's Social Conflict in a Global Context" and Michael McCaughan's, "The Battle of Venezuela."

    The 1970s were boom years for oil, during which the material standard of living for all classes in Venezuela improved. This was partly due to the ruling AD and COPEI parties' investing in social welfare projects which, because of the government's oil income, they could do without heavily taxing private wealth.[3] "Venezuelan workers enjoyed the highest wages in Latin America and subsidies in food, health, education and transport."[4] However, "toward the end of the 1970s, these tendencies began to reverse themselves."[5] Per capita oil income and per capita income both declined, leading to a foreign debt crisis and forced devaluation of the bolivar in 1983.[5] The negative trend continued through the 1990s. "Per capita income in 1997 was 8 percent less than in 1970; workers' income during this period was reduced by approximately half."[5] "Between 1984 and 1995 the percentage of people living below the poverty line jumped from 36 percent to 66 percent, while the number of people suffering from extreme poverty tripled, from 11 percent to 36 percent."[6]
    So let's review...oil prices high; Venezuelan workers are well paid and social welfare projects are on schedule. Oil prices go down, country enters economic depression, lower class turns ugly, upper class hides in mansions, yadda yadda...Chavez wins election. Oil prices go back up, Venezuela begins improving again.

    But yeah. Sure. It's the misiones. Never mind that Venezuela's Gini coefficient increased from 2000 to 2005, suggesting rising economic inequality. Never mind that, according to Alfredo Keller y Asocioados, only 22% of Venezuelans think poverty has improved under Chavez. The reason he gets re-elected is the economic growth --- but again, that's because of surging oil prices. Same reason why United Russia is still in power.

    Umm, I'm talking about the American led bit of the coup. But the PDVSA aspect of it is interesting, now that they're fired the nationalized oil sector actually operates under the government.
    Well, what you were talking about was not imposing sanctions on a body that helped us. I merely argued that it's not the same people at the top.

    Repressive dictator? You sound like my crazy Venezuelan grandma. Funny that.
    You should listen to your grandma.


    Oh also @What If...



    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Ok. Repressive? Repressive on what?
    Let's see...firing tear gas at anti-Chavez student protesters, sponsoring a terrorist organization that rapes, pillages, murders, and sells cocaine to the United States...unplugging those numerous media opposition outlets when it is convenient for him...oh and this...http://www.laht.com/article.asp?Arti...tegoryId=10717

    ...and this...



    If you'd like to argue as to the DEGREE of repression, we can do that. But let's not pretend like it doesn't exist, please.

    Also...the man openly gutted Venezuela's main labor union! Like I said, the ILO openly panned him for it! Shouldn't you as a "Democratic Socialist" be condemning him too??
    Last edited by Jeezy; 05-30-11 at 02:16 PM.
    SWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAG
    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

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    Re: Venezuela Rejects US Sanctions, Evaluates Oil Supply to US

    This is a mistake. The U.S. has no credibility going after Venezuela while its face is still sticky from sucking off Saudi Arabia, especially on such a pathetic "refining gasoline" pretext. We need oil and there is no benefit to endangering our supply with nothing to gain in return. I am no fan of Chavez, but we deal with far worse to get our supply of oil.

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    Re: Venezuela Rejects US Sanctions, Evaluates Oil Supply to US

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    This is a mistake. The U.S. has no credibility going after Venezuela while its face is still sticky from sucking off Saudi Arabia, especially on such a pathetic "refining gasoline" pretext. We need oil and there is no benefit to endangering our supply with nothing to gain in return. I am no fan of Chavez, but we deal with far worse to get our supply of oil.
    I believe it was SE102 who posted this quote back on page one.

    The State Department clarified that in the case of PDVSA, the sanctions “prohibit the company from competing for US government procurement contracts, from securing financing from the Export-Import Bank of the United States, and from obtaining US export licenses”. The US sanctions do not affect Venezuela’s supply of oil to the United States, as clearly the Obama administration would not want to directly affect its own interests. Nor do the sanctions apply to PDVSA subsidiaries, such as CITGO, a US corporation owned by PDVSA which has seven oil refineries and over 10,000 gas stations throughout the United States.
    SWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAG
    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

  8. #48
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    Re: Venezuela Rejects US Sanctions, Evaluates Oil Supply to US

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    I believe it was SE102 who posted this quote back on page one.
    That operates under the false assumption that Chavez won't retaliate. He doesn't lack motivation and given his control over oil, he probably has the means as well. Aggressive actions like sanctions have consequences.

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    Re: Venezuela Rejects US Sanctions, Evaluates Oil Supply to US

    I'm pretty sure the sanctions are against these oil companies for doing business with Iran

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    Re: Venezuela Rejects US Sanctions, Evaluates Oil Supply to US

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    That operates under the false assumption that Chavez won't retaliate. He doesn't lack motivation and given his control over oil, he probably has the means as well. Aggressive actions like sanctions have consequences.
    It operates under the likely assumption that Chavez won't retaliate, aside from some rhetoric at home. He makes far too much money selling oil at discount prices to the Northeast to jeopardize that now -- with American blessings, I might add. This is merely a symbolic gesture meant to say, "Don't get any ideas with Iran." That's why the sanctions are so ginger. If we were really operating under the assumption that he won't retaliate, we'd just give him the Cuba treatment.
    Last edited by Jeezy; 05-30-11 at 04:30 PM.
    SWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAG
    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

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