“If you tremble indignation at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine.”
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אשכנזי היהודי • Белый Россию
I have been to many South American countries (Brazil, Peru, Chile, Venezuela, Argentina) and I can't mention one country that looked worse than Venezuela.
Caracas was just one huge slum. The relative poverty rate may not be that high if everyone is poor. There was thousands of employees at the airport, but none of them could speak English, and they were not working. They were just employed to reduce the unemployment rate. 80% of the city was a huge slum, and it would be life-threatning to walk outside the city centre areas and tourist areas, that are protected with guards. This is also reflected in crime statistics, their murder rate is 160 per 100K. Caracas in Venezuela tops list of murder capitals of the world | Mail Online
If we compare compare murder rate of South American countries then we get
Venezuela 49 (offical) 65 (unoffical)
Also, now the economy in Venezuela is going down while the rest of South America is growing. Venezuela should be the richest country in South America because it has lots of oil. Also Venezuela was a developed country back in the days and was one of the riches countries in the world. There is nothing impressive about Venezuela.
I also think it is funny that liberals call the opposition right wing extremists. I ask, which party is the right wing extremists. Right now it is between Hugo Chavez and everyone else which includes. Democratic Action and COPEI (which held power from 1958 to 1998); the left groups Movement for Socialism, Radical Cause and Red Flag Party; and more recently established parties Project Venezuela, A New Era, Justice First and For Social Democrac. Doesn't sound like right-wing extremists in my ears. In fact back in the days Democratic Action was the left wing alternative against COPEI, and they won most of the elections.
Venezuela is a classical failure of left-wing politics. But somehow some liberals tend to think that Venezuela was taken over by imperalists who took all the resources and then Hugo Chavez came and saved the day.
That'll teach me to do drivebys.
Not that much difference. More amoral owners failing to respond to the economic situation well. Chavez has gone downhill from what I've seen, doesn't accept challenges to his power well. Columbia is about as bad as the revolutionaries and serves as a US agent in the region.
People are sh*tty.
One encounters so much unconsidered cookie cutter nonsense its easy to go off half cocked. My bad.
Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
The Psychology of Persuasion
So let's review...oil prices high; Venezuelan workers are well paid and social welfare projects are on schedule. Oil prices go down, country enters economic depression, lower class turns ugly, upper class hides in mansions, yadda yadda...Chavez wins election. Oil prices go back up, Venezuela begins improving again.The 1970s were boom years for oil, during which the material standard of living for all classes in Venezuela improved. This was partly due to the ruling AD and COPEI parties' investing in social welfare projects which, because of the government's oil income, they could do without heavily taxing private wealth. "Venezuelan workers enjoyed the highest wages in Latin America and subsidies in food, health, education and transport." However, "toward the end of the 1970s, these tendencies began to reverse themselves." Per capita oil income and per capita income both declined, leading to a foreign debt crisis and forced devaluation of the bolivar in 1983. The negative trend continued through the 1990s. "Per capita income in 1997 was 8 percent less than in 1970; workers' income during this period was reduced by approximately half." "Between 1984 and 1995 the percentage of people living below the poverty line jumped from 36 percent to 66 percent, while the number of people suffering from extreme poverty tripled, from 11 percent to 36 percent."
But yeah. Sure. It's the misiones. Never mind that Venezuela's Gini coefficient increased from 2000 to 2005, suggesting rising economic inequality. Never mind that, according to Alfredo Keller y Asocioados, only 22% of Venezuelans think poverty has improved under Chavez. The reason he gets re-elected is the economic growth --- but again, that's because of surging oil prices. Same reason why United Russia is still in power.
Well, what you were talking about was not imposing sanctions on a body that helped us. I merely argued that it's not the same people at the top.Umm, I'm talking about the American led bit of the coup. But the PDVSA aspect of it is interesting, now that they're fired the nationalized oil sector actually operates under the government.
You should listen to your grandma.Repressive dictator? You sound like my crazy Venezuelan grandma. Funny that.
Oh also @What If...
If you'd like to argue as to the DEGREE of repression, we can do that. But let's not pretend like it doesn't exist, please.
Also...the man openly gutted Venezuela's main labor union! Like I said, the ILO openly panned him for it! Shouldn't you as a "Democratic Socialist" be condemning him too??
Last edited by Jeezy; 05-30-11 at 12:16 PM.
Originally Posted by Josie
This is a mistake. The U.S. has no credibility going after Venezuela while its face is still sticky from sucking off Saudi Arabia, especially on such a pathetic "refining gasoline" pretext. We need oil and there is no benefit to endangering our supply with nothing to gain in return. I am no fan of Chavez, but we deal with far worse to get our supply of oil.
The State Department clariﬁed that in the case of PDVSA, the sanctions “prohibit the company from competing for US government procurement contracts, from securing ﬁnancing from the Export-Import Bank of the United States, and from obtaining US export licenses”. The US sanctions do not affect Venezuela’s supply of oil to the United States, as clearly the Obama administration would not want to directly affect its own interests. Nor do the sanctions apply to PDVSA subsidiaries, such as CITGO, a US corporation owned by PDVSA which has seven oil reﬁneries and over 10,000 gas stations throughout the United States.
Originally Posted by Josie
I'm pretty sure the sanctions are against these oil companies for doing business with Iran
Last edited by Jeezy; 05-30-11 at 02:30 PM.
Originally Posted by Josie