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Thread: McConnell: Paul Ryan Medicare Plan 'On The Table' In Debt Ceiling Discussions

  1. #81
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    Re: McConnell: Paul Ryan Medicare Plan 'On The Table' In Debt Ceiling Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I have type 2 Diabetes, but it is well controlled by diet and exercise (very proud that I lost better than 150 lbs and need no medication).

    However, my wife has a chronic issue with phobias that requires many meds. These are expensive, even with insurance. So, it is a chronic condition.
    Congratulations on maintaining your health without meds. I suffer no health issues, yet my wife suffers from both fibromyalsia and psoriasis. Her medical costs are quite extensive with the insurance as well.

    My point is that I hear many complain about the costs being driven by sick people, however I do not think anyone would actually advocate letting these people die to save money. You would think that money is more important than people to many on this forum and it is ridiculous.

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    Re: McConnell: Paul Ryan Medicare Plan 'On The Table' In Debt Ceiling Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Then let us look at this another way, a scientific way. Should we even be attempting to prolong the lives of those who have inherited diseases? If we continue to treat those and prolong the life of those who are prone to diabetes and heart disease aren't we really ensuring that such traits are passed forward into the gene pool? Perhaps we should desire that those who need much medical attention due to their weak constitutions should simply die off and in the future their diseases will disappear with them. Of course this would dramatically cut costs and we could all save money. Isn't that what is most important saving money? I think not. Yet if we create a system where people will indeed lose more access to medical care, as will certainly happen with Ryan's plan because once it is privatized and people have to make-up the difference in cost, the rising costs will prevent people from going and the deaths from treatable diseases and conditions will increase. Thus, lets just push it along and once the Baby Boomers are thinned out substantially, Medicare will once again be sustainable and may continue. Right?
    putting aside the eugenics straw man... no. It will not be. Because medicare will not survive the Baby Boomers. Medicare will not even survive the next decade. This isn't a question of putting money over people - it's a question of whether we want to have Medicare survive to take care of the Boomers and the generation after them or not. Because on our current path, it doesnt'.

    Ryan's plan does not "privatize" Medicare - you don't get a voucher from the government or any such thing. Under Premium Support, Medicare offers you a number of guaranteed plans, and you pick from among them which one you want - with Medicare picking up a chunk of the premium (hence: premium support), picking up more if you are poorer, and less if you are wealthier.

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    Re: McConnell: Paul Ryan Medicare Plan 'On The Table' In Debt Ceiling Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    hmm......and how do we develop cures if not for treating those with the disease?

    i am becoming more and more fond of the idea of taking the entire medical profession out of the private market.

    doing so has not proven as effective for "developing cures" or curing people with them.

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    Re: McConnell: Paul Ryan Medicare Plan 'On The Table' In Debt Ceiling Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    hmm......and how do we develop cures if not for treating those with the disease?

    i am becoming more and more fond of the idea of taking the entire medical profession out of the private market.
    Not all diseases are genetic and thus would require research. However, if you simply allow certain populations to die of the diseases, those who are immune reproduce more and eventually the genetic prone trait dies out. For instance, 1% of the population of the world is immune to HIV, thus if we let the other 99% die from HIV, then HIV is cured.

    My point is no one in their right mind would suggest such an option seriously. We need to save money sure, but the money is not more important that the lives.....well to some it very well maybe.

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    Re: McConnell: Paul Ryan Medicare Plan 'On The Table' In Debt Ceiling Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Congratulations on maintaining your health without meds. I suffer no health issues, yet my wife suffers from both fibromyalsia and psoriasis. Her medical costs are quite extensive with the insurance as well.

    My point is that I hear many complain about the costs being driven by sick people, however I do not think anyone would actually advocate letting these people die to save money. You would think that money is more important than people to many on this forum and it is ridiculous.
    True. I remember a meeting long ago when we were negotiating insurance premiums. One person argued that sick people should be thrown off the rolls the minute they got sick in order to keep premiums low. I asked what would be the purpose of having insurance then?

    But, people have to decide how they want to treat people with chronic and emergent needs. They cost. Few will ever be able to afford the cost. So, what do we do?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: McConnell: Paul Ryan Medicare Plan 'On The Table' In Debt Ceiling Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    putting aside the eugenics straw man... no. It will not be. Because medicare will not survive the Baby Boomers. Medicare will not even survive the next decade. This isn't a question of putting money over people - it's a question of whether we want to have Medicare survive to take care of the Boomers and the generation after them or not. Because on our current path, it doesnt'.

    Ryan's plan does not "privatize" Medicare - you don't get a voucher from the government or any such thing. Under Premium Support, Medicare offers you a number of guaranteed plans, and you pick from among them which one you want - with Medicare picking up a chunk of the premium (hence: premium support), picking up more if you are poorer, and less if you are wealthier.
    Yet it will not be Medicare will it. It will be subsidized health insurance. How is this different from the Healthcare Reform Act in function? Does that bill not function exactly the same in that the goverment would subsidize a private insurance policy?

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    Re: McConnell: Paul Ryan Medicare Plan 'On The Table' In Debt Ceiling Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    doing so has not proven as effective for "developing cures" or curing people with them.

    You might want to check into the National Institutes of Health

    Yesterday, Today & Tomorrow: NIH Research Timelines

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    Re: McConnell: Paul Ryan Medicare Plan 'On The Table' In Debt Ceiling Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yeah, that has slowed down insurance comapnies a lot. As evidenced by them continuely offering less while charging more.
    so the man asserts - but the fact remains that insurance agencies are beholden to you by contract and can be sued should they choose not to cover that which they are obligated to. government is not beholden to you, and is immune from suit should it decide you are no longer worth the money.

    Yes it will, and I doubt there is much opposition to means testing accept among voters.
    we shall see. the alternative is to harm the poor more - and I think that they will be fine with means testing when they realize that is their choice.

    OK, so you acknowledge the need for forces other than the free market, like the government?
    I'm a proponent for reforming Medicaid and Medicare so that they function well and don't drag the nation into a debt crises - not ending them.

    as for introducing market pressure to drive down costs and expenditures?

    All within the context of existing aid and also limited. Take Dr. Berry. His program works because others take who he won't. If all followed suit, not only would prices overall not decrease enough to matter, but even more people would lack access, or be left with something truely inferior.
    you say you see no evidence, I provide it at length, and that is all you have to say.

    "within the context of existing aid"? what does that even mean? how did "existing aid" make market pressure work for Indiana? for Whole Foods? how does "existing aid" let Wal-Mart provide cheap medication and clinic services.

    and you are mistaking Dr. Berry for one with the incentives of an insurance agency. He wants sick people because they will be repeat customers. His program works because he operates in a market where you pay for goods instead of our current system where we try to get others to do that for us.

    Yes, the completely market driven system is prue fanasty. If you want elements incorporated in with other elements, we might agree. But that doesn't seem to be what you are really arguing.
    largely because that was a quote of yours that i accidentally left off the end

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    Re: McConnell: Paul Ryan Medicare Plan 'On The Table' In Debt Ceiling Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Yet it will not be Medicare will it.
    yes, it will be. Just as Medicare part D is Medicare.

    It will be subsidized health insurance. How is this different from the Healthcare Reform Act in function? Does that bill not function exactly the same in that the goverment would subsidize a private insurance policy?
    1. no individual mandate
    2. no barriers - people are free to pick any plan that they choose, no punishment if they spend too much or too little. As I understand, they are also national plans, and thus not subject to state border restrictions.
    3. we can afford this

    structurally, though, there are indeed some similarities between how the plan will function.
    Last edited by cpwill; 06-08-11 at 09:50 PM.

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    Re: McConnell: Paul Ryan Medicare Plan 'On The Table' In Debt Ceiling Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    so the man asserts - but the fact remains that insurance agencies are beholden to you by contract and can be sued should they choose not to cover that which they are obligated to. government is not beholden to you, and is immune from suit should it decide you are no longer worth the money.
    You sound like a man who has never dealt with one. Getting money can be difficult even when you're right. Suing is hardly a sure thing, and you might actually have an easier time with the government. But the fact remains there isn't much difference between them.


    we shall see. the alternative is to harm the poor more - and I think that they will be fine with means testing when they realize that is their choice.
    I think there are those who feel they are entitled, no matter how well off they are, I have heard the argument many times. But I hope you're right on that one. I just don't think you are.

    I'm a proponent for reforming Medicaid and Medicare so that they function well and don't drag the nation into a debt crises - not ending them.
    The devil is always in the details. If you change them so much that they really don't do anything, there is not much point. What Ryan does goes a long way towward giving seniors and others much less and toward reforming it in a way that is positive and meaningful.


    you say you see no evidence, I provide it at length, and that is all you have to say.

    "within the context of existing aid"? what does that even mean? how did "existing aid" make market pressure work for Indiana? for Whole Foods? how does "existing aid" let Wal-Mart provide cheap medication and clinic services.

    and you are mistaking Dr. Berry for one with the incentives of an insurance agency. He wants sick people because they will be repeat customers. His program works because he operates in a market where you pay for goods instead of our current system where we try to get others to do that for us.
    No, you didn't. I know you think that any old thing you throw up is overwhelming, but it isn't. And I make no mistake at all with Dr. Berry. There are more than enough sick people, wealthy sick people. He doesn't have to lower anything much. I know the profession fairly well. Going this route universally will never lower the costs enough to make it affordable for a all, or even a majority, and will leave a large number outside without adequate care.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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