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Thread: Tuscon gunmen Jared Loughner ruled unfit to stand trial

  1. #41
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    Re: Tuscon gunmen Jared Loughner ruled unfit to stand trial

    Quote Originally Posted by empireofreason View Post
    I dont' really think his mental state should override the nature of his actions and give an allowance of mercy. If he had accidentally hit these people with a car that's one thing, but his mind was what brought this about, medically sane or insane. He cannot be trusted ever again based up the severity of what his mind brought about. As far as evidence that would bring about guilt, it appears there are so many credible witness' that it's obvious he has commited the acts.

    As I said before, they need to enact a law that in such cases get any ongoing cases (such as this) as well as any in the future, to execute people like this within 24 hr of hearing that proves a person did such a horrible act. Obviously it should only be done in special cases where the act is horrible and the evidence is bullet proof like in this situation.

    Running him through the process or institutionalizing him is punishing the tax payers in a time of economic crisis. He is not rehabilitateable and it's obvious from the bystanders testimony he was the one who did this. No wonder we are in so much financial trouble, we can't even handle a easy situation like this a rational and efficient manner.
    Why not? His actions were not performed in a rational manner. He may not even be fully aware of what his actions are. Punishing someone for that, beyond being pointless and doing nothing to reduce his violence, is a bit like putting a child with mental retardation in a regular class and then failing him. You're missing the fundamental point - inability to understand ones own actions or reality.

    I agree he can never be trusted in society. Degrees of psychosis that violent are uncommon, and the person is usually beyond ever being able to fully recover. But punishment is the wrong answer. Psychiatric treatment will not only improve his state, but make him less dangerous.

    I'm not disagreeing with the notion that society must be protected from violent people, regardless of the cause of their violence. I am only disagreeing on what the appropriate course of action is.

    Punishment in this case is a purely symbolic, and viscerally bloodthirsty reaction. It is pointless. It helps no one. Not him and not society.

    Killing people is not a rational or efficient response in any civilized nation. Societies with the death penalty have higher rates of murder. All it does is make murder socially acceptable, and thus more common. The loss of life and tax payer money over the long run is actually less by banning it, in every case.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 05-27-11 at 04:06 AM.

  2. #42
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    Re: Tuscon gunmen Jared Loughner ruled unfit to stand trial

    Quote Originally Posted by empireofreason View Post
    As far as evidence that would bring about guilt, it appears there are so many credible witness' that it's obvious he has commited the acts.
    "Guilt" in American jurisprudence includes mens rea. You cannot be guilty of a crime without criminal intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by empireofreason View Post
    As I said before, they need to enact a law that in such cases get any ongoing cases (such as this) as well as any in the future, to execute people like this within 24 hr of hearing that proves a person did such a horrible act. Obviously it should only be done in special cases where the act is horrible and the evidence is bullet proof like in this situation.
    Why are you in such a hurry? He's in the hospital. He's not an immediate danger to anyone right now. There is plenty of time to evaluate him and give him all of the due process that he is entitled to by law.

    If you want to change the law so that incurable and dangerous psychotics are euthanized rather than indefinitely detained, I have no objection to that. But there is absolutely no reason to rush the process; that will only lead to mistakes and miscarriages of justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    I agree he can never be trusted in society. Degrees of psychosis that violent are uncommon, and the person is usually beyond ever being able to fully recover. But punishment is the wrong answer. Psychiatric treatment will not only improve his state, but make him less dangerous.
    And what is the goal of that, then? What is the benefit? Improving his condition and making him less dangerous don't mean anything if he can't ever be released. I agree that punishing him for his crimes is misguided, and the zeal with which people wish to do so is a little sick, but attempting to treat him is a waste of everyone's time and a potential risk to future faculty and patients. It is just as pointless and wasteful as others' desire to "punish" him.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Killing people is not a rational or efficient response in any civilized nation. Societies with the death penalty have higher rates of murder. All it does is make murder socially acceptable, and thus more common. The loss of life and tax payer money over the long run is actually less by banning it, in every case.
    If killing people weren't the most rational and efficient response to so many problems, we would never have developed so many ways of doing it. Sometimes, it's for the best.

  3. #43
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    Re: Tuscon gunmen Jared Loughner ruled unfit to stand trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    And what is the goal of that, then? What is the benefit? Improving his condition and making him less dangerous don't mean anything if he can't ever be released. I agree that punishing him for his crimes is misguided, and the zeal with which people wish to do so is a little sick, but attempting to treat him is a waste of everyone's time and a potential risk to future faculty and patients. It is just as pointless and wasteful as others' desire to "punish" him.

    If killing people weren't the most rational and efficient response to so many problems, we would never have developed so many ways of doing it. Sometimes, it's for the best.
    You have no idea whether that's true or not. Full functionality is unlikely, and regardless he must be monitered. But partial recovery is certainly possible, and a return to some sort of productive status in or out of institutionalization is possible. In would be preferrable, but I doubt he'll ever be released anyway. I also doubt he will ever receive enough care to make him productive, if he is able to be.

    It isn't rational or efficient. It results in more killing. Execution cultures have higher rates of murder. Their rates of murder drop when they abolish execution. So unless you consider a self-perpetuated murder culture rational and efficient, that simply isn't true.

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    Re: Tuscon gunmen Jared Loughner ruled unfit to stand trial

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    I also doubt he will ever receive enough care to make him productive, if he is able to be.
    Okay, that point I have to concede.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    It isn't rational or efficient. It results in more killing. Execution cultures have higher rates of murder. Their rates of murder drop when they abolish execution. So unless you consider a self-perpetuated murder culture rational and efficient, that simply isn't true.
    Murder rate's lower now than it was during the entire time that we had a moratorium.

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    Re: Tuscon gunmen Jared Loughner ruled unfit to stand trial

    Just as something to think on a little, Cracked ran an article a while ago about police myths that people believe. #6 deals with the insanity defense. It's kind of interesting.

    7 Bull**** Police Myths Everyone Believes (Thanks to Movies) | Cracked.com
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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    Re: Tuscon gunmen Jared Loughner ruled unfit to stand trial

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    It isn't rational or efficient. It results in more killing. Execution cultures have higher rates of murder. Their rates of murder drop when they abolish execution
    Assuming this is true - show causation.

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    Re: Tuscon gunmen Jared Loughner ruled unfit to stand trial


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    Re: Tuscon gunmen Jared Loughner ruled unfit to stand trial


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    Re: Tuscon gunmen Jared Loughner ruled unfit to stand trial

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    Ok.... assuming this is all true.... show causation.
    Uh, last link. Did you look at it?

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    Re: Tuscon gunmen Jared Loughner ruled unfit to stand trial

    If you believe in justice then you understand the "insanity" defense, and the "too young" defense, and the "developmentally disabled defense. If you believe in punishment then you don't. To the former a person's mental state is taken into account, to the latter it's: "Do the crime do the time/die." It's really a question how high up the morality scale you are. Justice folks are higher up the scale than punishment folks.

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