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Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

MistressNomad said:
Yes.

And at this point, it's willful ignorance. The mountain of proof that proves you wrong is overwhelming. Besides, who would choose to be gay in this culture?
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Belief is the death of intelligence. You are unable to concretely prove your beliefs, same as I. We are not intelligent, MistressNomad. Can you scientifically prove your belief? Before you talk of animals, realize we are not animals.
 
MistressNomad said:
Yes.

And at this point, it's willful ignorance. The mountain of proof that proves you wrong is overwhelming. Besides, who would choose to be gay in this culture?
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There is a mountain of proof? I must have missed the mountain.

Who would choose to be gay? The kids who want to be different than others but don’t want to be all alone would be my first guess.
 
MistressNomad said:
Yes.

And at this point, it's willful ignorance. The mountain of proof that proves you wrong is overwhelming. Besides, who would choose to be gay in this culture?
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There is a mountain of proof? I must have missed the mountain. If it has been proven that people are born gay that means a genetic signature has been identified and a test can be performed at birth or even before birth.

Mother can now choose to abort what would be a gay child now if what you say is true. Please show me this mountain of evidence.


Who would choose to be gay? The kids who want to be different than others but don’t want to be all alone would be my first guess.
 
LuckyDan said:
What would that statement even mean to a kindergartner? And why do you assume they would get an image of two men holding hands? Why not one of their dad and uncle, bear-hugging at Christmas?
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Sure. Whatever. Just pointing out that it's not the apocolyspe if a kindergartner learns what gay is.

It would probably mean the same thing to a kindergartner that it does when you say mommy and daddy love each other and that's why they're together. No much, in other words. That's the point.
 
MistressNomad said:
Sure. Whatever. Just pointing out that it's not the apocolyspe if a kindergartner learns what gay is.

It would probably mean the same thing to a kindergartner that it does when you say mommy and daddy love each other and that's why they're together. No much, in other words. That's the point.
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"Mommy and daddy" means something to a child of 6. I'm not sure "two people of the same sex" does, in a marital sense.

But yeah. Whatever.
 
GPS_Flex said:
I'm not a Christian and I think gays decide to be gay just like children decide they do or don't like broccoli. Am I ignorant too?
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Are you arguing that you believe with absolute certainty that all gays decide to be gay or that all children decide whether they like or dislike broccoli?

Because if you aren't, then you are a really poor comparison to a Christian, because they do hold their personal beliefs as absolute.
 
Wake said:
No. I believe in my belief, but I myself cannot say others are wrong and I am absolutely right. I decide to follow the Word of God. Hazlnut seems utterly convinced that he cannot be wrong. He has a belief as I do, yet we cannot absolutely prove them. If I were ignorant enough to deem everyone wrong...

...how then could I say I cannot prove my belief?
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Bullcrap.

You hold the Bible as infallible.
You personally believe in the Bible.
Therefore, you hold your personal beliefs as infallible.

Simple logic.

You believe you cannot be wrong as long as you follow the Bible. It isn't any different than what you are accusing Hazulnut of doing.
 
Wake said:
Belief is the death of intelligence. You are unable to concretely prove your beliefs, same as I. We are not intelligent, MistressNomad. Can you scientifically prove your belief? Before you talk of animals, realize we are not animals.
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You didn't ask. I'll take your meaningless conjecture as a request, then. Unlike you, I don't "believe" things. I accept things that are actually true. And yes, we are animals. Your arrogance to the point of self-delusion is stunning. But I don't need to talk about other animals. Plenty of proof within our own species.

GPS_Flex said:
There is a mountain of proof? I must have missed the mountain. If it has been proven that people are born gay that means a genetic signature has been identified and a test can be performed at birth or even before birth.

Mother can now choose to abort what would be a gay child now if what you say is true. Please show me this mountain of evidence.

Who would choose to be gay? The kids who want to be different than others but don’t want to be all alone would be my first guess.
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Not necessarily genetics. At least, not of the child. I'm going to ignore your scary comment about mothers aborting gay fetuses. But either way, I doubt these traits would show up in a fetus.

This article is a great catch-all to all of the various physical traits we have identified as being common in gay people. Links are in the article, take you to a variety of studies.
Homosexuality in body, brain and behaviour « Mind Hacks

The suspected cause of homosexuality - certain types of hormonal exposure at gestation:
Male hormone levels in womb may affect sexual orientation, study says - CNN

...Which also just so happens to explain some of the physical traits.

If it affects your bone structure, it's not a choice.
 
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CriticalThought said:
Bullcrap.

You hold the Bible as infallible.
You personally believe in the Bible.
Therefore, you hold your personal beliefs as infallible.

Simple logic.

You believe you cannot be wrong as long as you follow the Bible. It isn't any different than what you are accusing Hazulnut of doing.
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I believe the Bible to be true, but I acknowledge I cannot prove it. It is faith.

Has hazlnut stated that he cannot prove his belief? Not yet, he has not. That is the difference.

You should not speak on my behalf, criticalthought.
 
CriticalThought said:
Are you arguing that you believe with absolute certainty that all gays decide to be gay or that all children decide whether they like or dislike broccoli?

Because if you aren't, then you are a really poor comparison to a Christian, because they do hold their personal beliefs as absolute.
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In the absence of proof to the contrary, yes, that is the natural order of things as Darwin would say.

What happened to your mountain? Is this going to be long philosophical type of proof where there isn’t any real proof?

Just give me the name of the scientist that identified the genetic anomaly that determines people are gay before birth. That should be simple enough.

I’m pretty sure non-gay parents would like to know how to detect it ahead of time so they can abort gay fetuses before they become real people.

This is an awesome breakthrough.

Being a bit sacastic to point out hypocricy.
 
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There is no such absolute scientific proof.
 
GPS_Flex said:
In the absence of proof to the contrary, yes, that is the natural order of things as Darwin would say.

What happened to your mountain? Is this going to be long philosophical type of proof where there isn’t any real proof?

Just give me the name of the scientist that identified the genetic anomaly that determines people are gay before birth. That should be simple enough.

I’m pretty sure non-gay parents would like to know how to detect it ahead of time so they can abort gay fetuses before they become real people.

This is an awesome breakthrough.

Being a bit sacastic to point out hypocricy.
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Have I argued anything one way or another regarding the origins of homosexuality in this thread?

All I have argued is that Wake, being a Christian, holds his personal beliefs as absolute and therefore it makes no sense to accuse someone else of doing the same thing.

I'm also different than you. It sounds like you believe whatever you want to believe unless it meets a burden of proof that you set. You probably also change that burden as more evidence becomes apparent in order to sustain the unsubstantiated positive claim that you originally took. In other words, you decided one day that homosexuality is a choice without really any evidence to support that claim, and as more evidence has come to challenge that notion, you have simply moved the goal posts rather than reevaluate that belief. That is a typical uncritical response.

But since you have brought it up. What is a choice? Do you even have a concrete definition by which to measure what does and does not meet that criteria, or is it simply some vague and abstract notion? Since you are arguing that it is somehow self evident that the natural course is that humans have a choice, perhaps you could explain exactly what that means.
 
MistressNomad said:
You didn't ask. I'll take your meaningless conjecture as a request, then. Unlike you, I don't "believe" things. I accept things that are actually true. And yes, we are animals. Your arrogance to the point of self-delusion is stunning. But I don't need to talk about other animals. Plenty of proof within our own species.




Not necessarily genetics. At least, not of the child. I'm going to ignore your scary comment about mothers aborting gay fetuses. But either way, I doubt these traits would show up in a fetus.

This article is a great catch-all to all of the various physical traits we have identified as being common in gay people. Links are in the article, take you to a variety of studies.
Homosexuality in body, brain and behaviour « Mind Hacks

The suspected cause of homosexuality - certain types of hormonal exposure at gestation:
Male hormone levels in womb may affect sexual orientation, study says - CNN

...Which also just so happens to explain some of the physical traits.

If it affects your bone structure, it's not a choice.
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You can’t be born “_____” (fill in the blank) unless genetics are the cause.


If you want to point to anything other than that, you are as full of crap as the guy who believes it is a sin because his church tells him it is no?


The statistics on anything else are hogwash if the claim is "people are born gay".
 
GPS_Flex said:
You can’t be born “_____” (fill in the blank) unless genetics are the cause.
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Do you know what epigenetics are? How about congenital defects?

Perhaps you should actually learn a little bit of biology before you try to engage in these kinds of debates.
 
CriticalThought said:
Have I argued anything one way or another regarding the origins of homosexuality in this thread?

All I have argued is that Wake, being a Christian, holds his personal beliefs as absolute and therefore it makes no sense to accuse someone else of doing the same thing.

I'm also different than you. It sounds like you believe whatever you want to believe unless it meets a burden of proof that you set. You probably also change that burden as more evidence becomes apparent in order to sustain the unsubstantiated positive claim that you originally took. In other words, you decided one day that homosexuality is a choice without really any evidence to support that claim, and as more evidence has come to challenge that notion, you have simply moved the goal posts rather than reevaluate that belief. That is a typical uncritical response.

But since you have brought it up. What is a choice? Do you even have a concrete definition by which to measure what does and does not meet that criteria, or is it simply some vague and abstract notion? Since you are arguing that it is somehow self evident that the natural course is that humans have a choice, perhaps you could explain exactly what that means.
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My bad Critical, had you tagged to the comment by Mistress.

Mistress, consider my comments to Critical as directed at you.
 
CriticalThought said:
Do you know what epigenetics are? How about congenital defects?

Perhaps you should actually learn a little bit of biology before you try to engage in these kinds of debates.
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I do know what they are. Feel free to explain how they predetermine gayness though.
 
GPS_Flex said:
You can’t be born “_____” (fill in the blank) unless genetics are the cause.


If you want to point to anything other than that, you are as full of crap as the guy who believes it is a sin because his church tells him it is no?


The statistics on anything else are hogwash if the claim is "people are born gay".
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Yes you can. IQ isn't always genetic. Many types of disorders aren't genetic. Are you saying enviornmental factors don't mean anything? People can develop cancer due to radiation exposure, yes? So why can't a fetus develop its sexuality due to exposures in the womb?

So now that I've given you proof, you're simply choosing to ignore it. Typical.
 
GPS_Flex said:
My bad Critical, had you tagged to the comment by Mistress.

Mistress, consider my comments to Critical as directed at you.
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Ironically, Critical gave the perfect response. I did indeed provide you with proof, and you did indeed just move the goal post. Actually you threw a bit of a fit and decided to just smash the goal post. Funny.
 
GPS_Flex said:
I do know what they are. Feel free to explain how they predetermine gayness though.
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In biology, and specifically genetics, epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in phenotype or gene expression caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence. Exposure to certain hormones within the womb can influence an individual's epigenetics and therefore suppress certain genes. This can be expressed purely physically, such as with intersexed children, which are children who have intermediate or atypical combinations of physical features that usually distinguish female from male. Such examples are micropenis, macroclitoris, or a combination. There is growing evidence that these epigenetic factors also influence brain structure in gay men.
 
MistressNomad said:
Ironically, Critical gave the perfect response. I did indeed provide you with proof, and you did indeed just move the goal post. Actually you threw a bit of a fit and decided to just smash the goal post. Funny.
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Proof? That is what you call proof? lol

I’m only hammering you because you were hammering the Christian. If you are going to bully someone for his religious faith, be prepared to take a few shoves in the back from those who don’t like bullies with lame ideas.

You see, I really am open minded and I have no fear of going to hell if I change my mind. However, you need to do more than post some articles listing psychological disorders brought about by environmental influences and get to proving this mountain you say you have or you need to accept the fact that you don’t have jack and you are no better for believing what you believe than the Christian is for what he believes.

Ok, no genetic proof. We agree on that then right?
 
GPS_Flex said:
Proof? That is what you call proof? lol

I’m only hammering you because you were hammering the Christian. If you are going to bully someone for his religious faith, be prepared to take a few shoves in the back from those who don’t like bullies with lame ideas.

You see, I really am open minded and I have no fear of going to hell if I change my mind. However, you need to do more than post some articles listing psychological disorders brought about by environmental influences and get to proving this mountain you say you have or you need to accept the fact that you don’t have jack and you are no better for believing what you believe than the Christian is for what he believes.

Ok, no genetic proof. We agree on that then right?
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I would say there is more empirical evidence to support the belief that some gay men have an epigenetically determined sexual orientation than there is to support the belief in the Christian God.

And for the record, you don't prove anything in science, you only falsify. A testable and yet unfalsifiable claim is held as empirical proof.
 
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CriticalThought said:
I would say there is more empirical evidence to support the belief that some gay men have an epigenetically determined sexual orientation than there is to support the belief in the Christian God.
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I see, in reality there is only a belief correct? I mean, you can’t prove his god doesn’t exist so it would be stupid of you to tell me that gayness exists until I can prove otherwise agreed?
 
GPS_Flex said:
Proof? That is what you call proof? lol

I’m only hammering you because you were hammering the Christian. If you are going to bully someone for his religious faith, be prepared to take a few shoves in the back from those who don’t like bullies with lame ideas.

You see, I really am open minded and I have no fear of going to hell if I change my mind. However, you need to do more than post some articles listing psychological disorders brought about by environmental influences and get to proving this mountain you say you have or you need to accept the fact that you don’t have jack and you are no better for believing what you believe than the Christian is for what he believes.

Ok, no genetic proof. We agree on that then right?
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So... you don't actually have any particular reason to hammer me, you just dislike that I don't accept religious arguments when discussing facts? Since when is religion considered factual?

If you really think you're "bullying" me, first of all it's kind of sad a grown man is that immature, but second you're doing a poor job by being consistently wrong.

Moving the goal post again, I see. You asked for "one scientist." I gave you many. I showed you why, and even how that manifests in a physically observable way. You're actually willing to deny the existence of physical traits to remain wrong.

(Re: genetics) Not at present. At the moment, birth order seems to be the determining factor. The more sons a woman has the more likely the youngest is to be gay. I don't know if that correlates for lesbian women.
 
GPS_Flex said:
I see, in reality there is only a belief correct? I mean, you can’t prove his god doesn’t exist so it would be stupid of you to tell me that gayness exists until I can prove otherwise agreed?
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Huh? First off, a belief in God is not anymore testable than a belief in vampires or leprechauns. A claim which cannot be tested, cannot be support by evidence or falsified by evidence. In other words, I have just as much reason to believe in vampires as I have to believe in God and there is just as much evidence to support the existence of vampires as there is to support the existence of God.

The Bible on the other hand, or the so called "Word of God" holds many testable claims. For example is it possible to build a boat out of wood that could hold two of every animal on the planet? No it is not.

As far as our understanding of sexual orientation, at our current level of technology we can only rely upon self report, involuntary physiological arousal (erections and vaginal lubrication), and behavior to arbitrarily categorize people for study. From doing so, scientists have observed certain physical traits more common among those placed in the gay category than in the straight category. To the exclusion of a genetic sequence to explain them, this would suggest a set of epigenetic factors. Other studies have supported this position. In fact, one study found that people could predict a young child's future sexual orientation with startling accuracy.

So would I say there is more evidence to support the latter than the former? Yes.
 
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