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Thread: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ah, but so does our mythical tennessean above. you just don't agree with his facts, nor he with yours. the fact that you are evil demonspawn and doomed for burning for your wicked lusts is something children need to be made aware of, just as the fact that sex is a normal part of a high school experience and needs to be done with condoms is. both imply a moral judgement, though one of condemnation and another of enabling or equivalency.



    if you want to teach biology that's fine and it belongs. no graduate should still buy the stork theory but if you want to teach sexuality, leave it to the family, or wait for college, when the (adult) student chooses the class.
    You can teach sexuality, without teaching morality. The facts are that if you use condoms properly you are extremely less likely to get an STI, Aids, pregnant etc, the facts are the homosexuality isn't a mental disorder, and all the things that apply to straight kids about safe sex, applies to LGBT kids as well. Nothing about that has anything to do with morality. Sure you can say that it is a moral issue that kids are being taught that homosexuality isn't a mental disease, but you can say that about anything being taught. The facts should be taught, nothing more, and nothing less.
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, they absolutely are. There is certainly a difference between providing information and making value judgments on that information
    no, there isn't. we're not talking about biology here, we are talking about sexuality. when you teach equivalently, you teach equivalency.

    It is YOU that is making the value judgments, not I.
    exactly, you see nothing inherently moral about one's sexuality. that is a moral position on the subject of sexuality that is not shared by the wide majority of Americans.

    And I already explained how your post, above, was not relevant to the discussion. It described the teaching of right and wrong, and about beliefs. Not what we are discussing.
    in fact we are discussing precisely that. but for some reason because you happen to agree with the moral presumptions of the current system, you recognize them no more than a fish see's water.

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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ah, but so does our mythical tennessean above. you just don't agree with his facts, nor he with yours. the fact that you are evil demonspawn and doomed for burning for your wicked lusts is something children need to be made aware of, just as the fact that sex is a normal part of a high school experience and needs to be done with condoms is. both imply a moral judgement, though one of condemnation and another of enabling or equivalency.



    if you want to teach biology that's fine and it belongs. no graduate should still buy the stork theory but if you want to teach sexuality, leave it to the family, or wait for college, when the (adult) student chooses the class.
    You can teach sexuality, without teaching morality. The facts are that if you use condoms properly you are extremely less likely to get an STI, Aids, pregnant etc, the facts are the homosexuality isn't a mental disorder, and all the things that apply to straight kids about safe sex, applies to LGBT kids as well. Nothing about that has anything to do with morality. Sure you can say that it is a moral issue that kids are being taught that homosexuality isn't a mental disease, but you can say that about anything being taught. The facts should be taught, nothing more, and nothing less.
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    no, there isn't. we're not talking about biology here, we are talking about sexuality. when you teach equivalently, you teach equivalency.
    Incorrect. Sexuality can easily be separated from morality and taught both educationally and scientifically. No problem at all.

    exactly, you see nothing inherently moral about one's sexuality. that is a moral position on the subject of sexuality that is not shared by the wide majority of Americans.
    No, I did not say that. What I said is that one can separate the morality and the information in regards to sexuality. Very easily.

    in fact we are discussing precisely that. but for some reason because you happen to agree with the moral presumptions of the current system, you recognize them no more than a fish see's water.
    No, that is not what we are discussing, but since you do not agree with the current state of things, you are attempting to define the discussion by something that it is not.
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    You can teach sexuality, without teaching morality.
    no, you can't. you teach kids about multiple different approaches to sexuality without distinguishing any moral difference between them, and all you have managed to teach is their moral equivalency. tell a kid it's nieither right nor wrong for him to have sex but here's a condom and what he learns is that his decision to have sex is morally unweighted - it is his decision to use protection that is important.

    The facts are that if you use condoms properly you are extremely less likely to get an STI, Aids, pregnant etc
    and the fact is that if you don't have sex you are even less likely to experience all these things. obviously if we want to avoid these things we should be hammering home abstinence only?

    of course not - because that is a moral position. i happen to agree with it, but your kids are not my kids and i have no right to impose on you teaching them your values.


    but i think it comes down to this - because you find sexuality to be morally equitable, you treat it as such and recognize the wrongness of trying to impose a specific "one way" for sexuality.

    but being equitable is a measurement too. if two items each weigh a pound, they don't cease to have mass, they remain both weighted. that items are presented without drawing moral distinction is just as much a moral decision as presenting them with a specific moral distinction.



    which is why you get laws like this. because parents get tired of arguing with each other when each is sure that they are "right" and only being "reasonable" about this critical part of humanity and how we should pass it on to the most precious things in our lives. for both sides it becomes a jihad - you fight to prevent aids, i fight to prevent promiscuity.

    until we get tired, and we all meet together and pass a law that says "**** it"; no more of anybody's system in school.

    which is apparently what Tennessee has done.
    Last edited by cpwill; 05-21-11 at 03:53 AM.

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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Incorrect. Sexuality can easily be separated from morality and taught both educationally and scientifically. No problem at all.
    biology can, certainly; and the reproductive cycle of the various life forms belongs in biology.

    sexuality, no it cannot. you merely think that because you separate sexuality from morality.

    No, I did not say that. What I said is that one can separate the morality and the information in regards to sexuality. Very easily.
    alright, convince me. tell me about your sexuality curriculum which makes no moral weights at all including the weight of equivalency.

    because that is a weight.

    No, that is not what we are discussing, but since you do not agree with the current state of things, you are attempting to define the discussion by something that it is not.
    indeed it is precisely what we are discussing and the fact that we are arguing about it and that this has been a major argument in American culture for decades now rather demonstrates that I am correct - and that this is a moral issue.


    i don't pay teachers to teach my kids about sexuality or it's role in society. that's my job. i hired them to teach the kids how to read.

    when our school system becomes awesome enough at that that we don't have significant portions of the populace that are functionally illiterate, can't perform basic mathematical equations without aid, and have no understanding of our nations' history - then i'll re-listen to the guy who is also convinced that they will just do a super-duper bang-up job of handing sensitive material that touches on deeply-held beliefs. i will be unlikely to agree with him that school is the proper format, but at least I won't consider him a fool for giving one of our most important jobs to one of our failing institutions.
    Last edited by cpwill; 05-21-11 at 04:02 AM.

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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    no, you can't. you teach kids about multiple different approaches to sexuality without distinguishing any moral difference between them, and all you have managed to teach is their moral equivalency. tell a kid it's nieither right nor wrong for him to have sex but here's a condom and what he learns is that his decision to have sex is morally unweighted - it is his decision to use protection that is important.



    and the fact is that if you don't have sex you are even less likely to experience all these things. obviously if we want to avoid these things we should be hammering home abstinence only?

    of course not - because that is a moral position. i happen to agree with it, but your kids are not my kids and i have no right to impose on you teaching them your values.


    but i think it comes down to this - because you find sexuality to be morally equitable, you treat it as such and recognize the wrongness of trying to impose a specific "one way" for sexuality.

    but being equitable is a measurement too. if two items each weigh a pound, they don't cease to have mass, they remain both weighted. that items are presented without drawing moral distinction is just as much a moral decision as presenting them with a specific moral distinction.



    which is why you get laws like this. because parents get tired of arguing with each other when each is sure that they are "right" and only being "reasonable" about this critical part of humanity and how we should pass it on to the most precious things in our lives. for both sides it becomes a jihad - you fight to prevent aids, i fight to prevent promiscuity.

    until we get tired, and we all meet together and pass a law that says "**** it"; no more of anybody's system in school.

    which is apparently what Tennessee has done.
    This is an inaccurate analysis of the situation. Morality has nothing to do with sex education. Sex education is about giving kids all the facts, so they know what they are going to be getting themselves into eventually. This isn't a moral issue, it is a health issue, our teen pregnancy, and STI rates are too high, and the way to lower them isn't to leave it up to the parents, but by having a more comprehensive sex education. It's about giving these kids facts, and leaving the moral ideas up to them. We shouldn't leave this up to the parents because the majority of them are not experts in the field of human sexuality, and alot of parents don't want to talk about this with their kids. I know mine didn't, and my sex education was crap, I had to learn about this stuff on my own. I was lucky, and found the right information, but alot of kids won't be so lucky, and this is a serious health risk you would be putting these kids in.
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    What are you talking about? I don't want the morality of sexuality to be taught it schools, I want the facts about not just homosexuality, but sexuality in general to be taught. By professional sex education teachers, just like I want math, and history to be taught by professional teachers in those fields.
    You know it's no wonder more and more people are talking about home schooling.
    When I was in school, what i recall was one chapter on "sex" education. It was in our health book. Maybe a little more than that but not much and we had to have a permission slip from home. Nothing was taught about homosexuals and in my opinion none was needed. Some things are a need to know basis at that age in my opinion. I had a gay uncle. It wasn't hard to figure out on my own. He'd lived with same man for 30 yrs. Never went out with women.
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    This is an inaccurate analysis of the situation
    no, it is an analysis that you disagree with. to say that it is inaccurate is to make a judgement call, which is something you are promising us you can somehow avoid doing. so either you are wrong then, or you are wrong now.

    . Morality has nothing to do with sex education.
    and that is a value judgement on which we utterly disagree.

    Sex education is about giving kids all the facts, so they know what they are going to be getting themselves into eventually.
    which is a moral assumption as well as an assumption of my role as a parent to prepare my child for life.

    This isn't a moral issue, it is a health issue, our teen pregnancy, and STI rates are too high, and the way to lower them isn't to leave it up to the parents, but by having a more comprehensive sex education.
    really. fascinating. so would you argue that since we have instituted sex education in our schools, teen pregnancy and STD rates have gone down?

    if it was about "keeping the kids from pregnancy or STD's", then we would be teaching them the one system that does so - which is abstinence.

    that we arent and that you don't want to is because you recognize the moral claim in that curriculum - and you recognize it because it is not your own, you are a fish out of water in it. you don't recognize it in your system because it is how you view sexuality - but i'm not a fish, and I know when I'm covered in water.

    It's about giving these kids facts, and leaving the moral ideas up to them.
    exactly. and since equivalency is a value, there you are. make your own decision, one is as good as another, there is no judging... those are arguments based on the premise of moral equivalency.

    We shouldn't leave this up to the parents because the majority of them are not experts in the field of human sexuality, and alot of parents don't want to talk about this with their kids.
    amazing. how did we ever survive as a species if children never learned about reproduction from parents that themselves had no idea?

    wait a minute, if the parents didn't have the basics of sexuality down.... where did the kid come from....

    I know mine didn't, and my sex education was crap, I had to learn about this stuff on my own. I was lucky, and found the right information, but alot of kids won't be so lucky, and this is a serious health risk you would be putting these kids in.
    not at all, we're going to teach them the actual way to avoid all that, which is abstinence until marriage to a single member of the opposite gender who is themself a virgin, remember?

    don't worry, no moral values involved. I promise, I won't teach any morals. Just that that is the only guaranteed way to avoid STD's and premarital pregnancy.
    Last edited by cpwill; 05-21-11 at 04:14 AM.

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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    You know it's no wonder more and more people are talking about home schooling.
    When I was in school, what i recall was one chapter on "sex" education. It was in our health book. Maybe a little more than that but not much and we had to have a permission slip from home. Nothing was taught about homosexuals and in my opinion none was needed. Some things are a need to know basis at that age in my opinion. I had a gay uncle. It wasn't hard to figure out on my own. He'd lived with same man for 30 yrs. Never went out with women.
    I wish the government would get out of the business of raising children. That's all I gotta say.
    Homosexuality should be taught because there are gay kids in schools, I was highly confused when I was in school, and a "hey this exists" would have been nice. Not a moral judgement, but just an acknowledgment, and the scholarly opinion on the subject.
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