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Thread: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

  1. #341
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Have I argued anything one way or another regarding the origins of homosexuality in this thread?

    All I have argued is that Wake, being a Christian, holds his personal beliefs as absolute and therefore it makes no sense to accuse someone else of doing the same thing.

    I'm also different than you. It sounds like you believe whatever you want to believe unless it meets a burden of proof that you set. You probably also change that burden as more evidence becomes apparent in order to sustain the unsubstantiated positive claim that you originally took. In other words, you decided one day that homosexuality is a choice without really any evidence to support that claim, and as more evidence has come to challenge that notion, you have simply moved the goal posts rather than reevaluate that belief. That is a typical uncritical response.

    But since you have brought it up. What is a choice? Do you even have a concrete definition by which to measure what does and does not meet that criteria, or is it simply some vague and abstract notion? Since you are arguing that it is somehow self evident that the natural course is that humans have a choice, perhaps you could explain exactly what that means.
    My bad Critical, had you tagged to the comment by Mistress.

    Mistress, consider my comments to Critical as directed at you.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
    John F. Kennedy
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

  2. #342
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Do you know what epigenetics are? How about congenital defects?

    Perhaps you should actually learn a little bit of biology before you try to engage in these kinds of debates.
    I do know what they are. Feel free to explain how they predetermine gayness though.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
    John F. Kennedy
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

  3. #343
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    You can’t be born “_____” (fill in the blank) unless genetics are the cause.


    If you want to point to anything other than that, you are as full of crap as the guy who believes it is a sin because his church tells him it is no?


    The statistics on anything else are hogwash if the claim is "people are born gay".
    Yes you can. IQ isn't always genetic. Many types of disorders aren't genetic. Are you saying enviornmental factors don't mean anything? People can develop cancer due to radiation exposure, yes? So why can't a fetus develop its sexuality due to exposures in the womb?

    So now that I've given you proof, you're simply choosing to ignore it. Typical.

  4. #344
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    My bad Critical, had you tagged to the comment by Mistress.

    Mistress, consider my comments to Critical as directed at you.
    Ironically, Critical gave the perfect response. I did indeed provide you with proof, and you did indeed just move the goal post. Actually you threw a bit of a fit and decided to just smash the goal post. Funny.

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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    I do know what they are. Feel free to explain how they predetermine gayness though.
    In biology, and specifically genetics, epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in phenotype or gene expression caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence. Exposure to certain hormones within the womb can influence an individual's epigenetics and therefore suppress certain genes. This can be expressed purely physically, such as with intersexed children, which are children who have intermediate or atypical combinations of physical features that usually distinguish female from male. Such examples are micropenis, macroclitoris, or a combination. There is growing evidence that these epigenetic factors also influence brain structure in gay men.

  6. #346
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Ironically, Critical gave the perfect response. I did indeed provide you with proof, and you did indeed just move the goal post. Actually you threw a bit of a fit and decided to just smash the goal post. Funny.

    Proof? That is what you call proof? lol

    Iím only hammering you because you were hammering the Christian. If you are going to bully someone for his religious faith, be prepared to take a few shoves in the back from those who donít like bullies with lame ideas.

    You see, I really am open minded and I have no fear of going to hell if I change my mind. However, you need to do more than post some articles listing psychological disorders brought about by environmental influences and get to proving this mountain you say you have or you need to accept the fact that you donít have jack and you are no better for believing what you believe than the Christian is for what he believes.

    Ok, no genetic proof. We agree on that then right?

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
    John F. Kennedy
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

  7. #347
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    Proof? That is what you call proof? lol

    I’m only hammering you because you were hammering the Christian. If you are going to bully someone for his religious faith, be prepared to take a few shoves in the back from those who don’t like bullies with lame ideas.

    You see, I really am open minded and I have no fear of going to hell if I change my mind. However, you need to do more than post some articles listing psychological disorders brought about by environmental influences and get to proving this mountain you say you have or you need to accept the fact that you don’t have jack and you are no better for believing what you believe than the Christian is for what he believes.

    Ok, no genetic proof. We agree on that then right?
    I would say there is more empirical evidence to support the belief that some gay men have an epigenetically determined sexual orientation than there is to support the belief in the Christian God.

    And for the record, you don't prove anything in science, you only falsify. A testable and yet unfalsifiable claim is held as empirical proof.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 05-24-11 at 02:33 AM.

  8. #348
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I would say there is more empirical evidence to support the belief that some gay men have an epigenetically determined sexual orientation than there is to support the belief in the Christian God.
    I see, in reality there is only a belief correct? I mean, you can’t prove his god doesn’t exist so it would be stupid of you to tell me that gayness exists until I can prove otherwise agreed?

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
    John F. Kennedy
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

  9. #349
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    Proof? That is what you call proof? lol

    I’m only hammering you because you were hammering the Christian. If you are going to bully someone for his religious faith, be prepared to take a few shoves in the back from those who don’t like bullies with lame ideas.

    You see, I really am open minded and I have no fear of going to hell if I change my mind. However, you need to do more than post some articles listing psychological disorders brought about by environmental influences and get to proving this mountain you say you have or you need to accept the fact that you don’t have jack and you are no better for believing what you believe than the Christian is for what he believes.

    Ok, no genetic proof. We agree on that then right?
    So... you don't actually have any particular reason to hammer me, you just dislike that I don't accept religious arguments when discussing facts? Since when is religion considered factual?

    If you really think you're "bullying" me, first of all it's kind of sad a grown man is that immature, but second you're doing a poor job by being consistently wrong.

    Moving the goal post again, I see. You asked for "one scientist." I gave you many. I showed you why, and even how that manifests in a physically observable way. You're actually willing to deny the existence of physical traits to remain wrong.

    (Re: genetics) Not at present. At the moment, birth order seems to be the determining factor. The more sons a woman has the more likely the youngest is to be gay. I don't know if that correlates for lesbian women.

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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    I see, in reality there is only a belief correct? I mean, you can’t prove his god doesn’t exist so it would be stupid of you to tell me that gayness exists until I can prove otherwise agreed?
    Huh? First off, a belief in God is not anymore testable than a belief in vampires or leprechauns. A claim which cannot be tested, cannot be support by evidence or falsified by evidence. In other words, I have just as much reason to believe in vampires as I have to believe in God and there is just as much evidence to support the existence of vampires as there is to support the existence of God.

    The Bible on the other hand, or the so called "Word of God" holds many testable claims. For example is it possible to build a boat out of wood that could hold two of every animal on the planet? No it is not.

    As far as our understanding of sexual orientation, at our current level of technology we can only rely upon self report, involuntary physiological arousal (erections and vaginal lubrication), and behavior to arbitrarily categorize people for study. From doing so, scientists have observed certain physical traits more common among those placed in the gay category than in the straight category. To the exclusion of a genetic sequence to explain them, this would suggest a set of epigenetic factors. Other studies have supported this position. In fact, one study found that people could predict a young child's future sexual orientation with startling accuracy.

    So would I say there is more evidence to support the latter than the former? Yes.

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