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Thread: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    biology can, certainly; and the reproductive cycle of the various life forms belongs in biology.

    sexuality, no it cannot. you merely think that because you separate sexuality from morality.
    And if I can, then it can be taught that way. Thank you.

    alright, convince me. tell me about your sexuality curriculum which makes no moral weights at all including the weight of equivalency.

    because that is a weight.
    YOUR description of morality is from the receiver. I can provide information, but how you take it is on YOU. If I say, there are several types of sexual orientations, and you think, "hey, he's saying that all are morally equivielnt", that is YOUR perception, and has nothing to do with what I am saying. I can provide plenty of information. I am not responsible for how you judge or perceive it.

    indeed it is precisely what we are discussing and the fact that we are arguing about it and that this has been a major argument in American culture for decades now rather demonstrates that I am correct - and that this is a moral issue.
    No, we are not arguing over whether it should be taught because of the moral implications. YOU are arguing that. I am telling you that is not the issue, that morality is separate from education. Some folk, erroneously, want to make it a moral issue.


    i don't pay teachers to teach my kids about sexuality or it's role in society. that's my job. i hired them to teach the kids how to read.
    I pay teachers to teach information that is useful. Sexuality is useful information. YOUR job is to teach the values of the information that is taught in school.

    when our school system becomes awesome enough at that that we don't have significant portions of the populace that are functionally illiterate, can't perform basic mathematical equations without aid, and have no understanding of our nations' history - then i'll re-listen to the guy who is also convinced that they will just do a super-duper bang-up job of handing sensitive material that touches on deeply-held beliefs. i will be unlikely to agree with him that school is the proper format, but at least I won't consider him a fool for giving one of our more important jobs to one of our failing institutions.
    Ah... reverting to the 'ole "reading, writing, and arithmatic first" argument, now. I disagree. Firstly, there is value in learning about sexuality, and culture and the arts, amongst other things. Secondly our educational problems are not solely the fault of the educational system. They are the fault of a combination of factors: the educational system, lack of parental involvement, and student apathy, for starters.
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    You know it's no wonder more and more people are talking about home schooling.
    When I was in school, what i recall was one chapter on "sex" education. It was in our health book. Maybe a little more than that but not much and we had to have a permission slip from home. Nothing was taught about homosexuals and in my opinion none was needed. Some things are a need to know basis at that age in my opinion. I had a gay uncle. It wasn't hard to figure out on my own. He'd lived with same man for 30 yrs. Never went out with women.
    I wish the government would get out of the business of raising children. That's all I gotta say.
    Homosexuality should be taught because there are gay kids in schools, I was highly confused when I was in school, and a "hey this exists" would have been nice. Not a moral judgement, but just an acknowledgment, and the scholarly opinion on the subject.
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    no, it is an analysis that you disagree with. to say that it is inaccurate is to make a judgement call, which is something you are promising us you can somehow avoid doing. so either you are wrong then, or you are wrong now.
    You could say the same thing about history, why should this version of history be taught over this one? Because the majority of educators in that field say so, that is what should be the determination of what is taught in schools.


    and that is a value judgement on which we utterly disagree.



    which is a moral assumption as well as an assumption of my role as a parent to prepare my child for life.



    really. fascinating. so would you argue that since we have instituted sex education in our schools, teen pregnancy and STD rates have gone down?

    if it was about "keeping the kids from pregnancy or STD's", then we would be teaching them the one system that does so - which is abstinence.

    that we arent and that you don't want to is because you recognize the moral claim in that curriculum - and you recognize it because it is not your own, you are a fish out of water in it. you don't recognize it in your system because it is how you view sexuality - but i'm not a fish, and I know when I'm covered in water.
    My whole premise is that sex education isn't good enough, and that is why I think STI's, and teen pregnancy numbers are too high. And you are making judgements about my views without knowing what they are, big mistake. I do want abstinence to be taught in schools, it should be an important part to any comprehensive sex education curriculum, I don't think it should be abstinence only though, because that is making a moral judgement, and taking morality out of the hands of the students. Which is who we should be thinking about the most in regards to this issue.

    exactly. and since equivalency is a value, there you are. make your own decision, one is as good as another, there is no judging... those are arguments based on the premise of moral equivalency.
    Teaching all of the facts, is not making a moral judgement. A moral judgement is about right, or wrong, and this does neither.


    amazing. how did we ever survive as a species if children never learned about reproduction from parents that themselves had no idea?

    wait a minute, if the parents didn't have the basics of sexuality down.... where did the kid come from....
    This is a over simplistic view of the issue. Obviously we know how to reproduce, this is teaching them how to do it safely, if they decide to have sex, and teaching them about various other issue's with regards to human sexuality. Obviously you will say as a species, our issues regarding sexuality is more complex then just the survival of the species.

    not at all, we're going to teach them the actual way to avoid all that, which is abstinence until marriage to a single member of the opposite gender who is themself a virgin, remember?

    don't worry, no moral values involved. I promise, I won't teach any morals. Just that that is the only guaranteed way to avoid STD's and premarital pregnancy.
    You are making a moral judgement by allowing them to only teach this, by teaching everything, you are leaving it up to the students, and giving them the power of knowledge, which is what school should do.
    Last edited by Your Star; 05-21-11 at 04:27 AM.
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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    And if I can, then it can be taught that way. Thank you.
    and success!

    YOUR description of morality is from the receiver. I can provide information, but how you take it is on YOU
    provision of information comes along with presumption of presentation.

    for example, if i were to give you two competing scientific theories in a book, without telling you which one was or was not correct, you would merely assume that they were competing theories - that difference scientists back each and that the debate was ongoing. you would perceive equivalency as a judgement between them because that is how i have presented the material to you - in a equivalent fashion. they could be as mis-matched as heliocentrism and flat-earthism, but if what you are given is the material presented without difference between the two or conclusion, you will perceive equivalency. you may not accept or agree with it, but that is what is being presented.

    If I say, there are several types of sexual orientations, and you think, "hey, he's saying that all are morally equivielnt", that is YOUR perception, and has nothing to do with what I am saying.
    actually it does - specifically it has to do with how you are saying it.

    for example, if i say "here are the major forms of human sexuality: homosexuality, bi sexuality, heterosexuality". that's an equivalency presentation. the student writes all three down on the list and there they all sit, coequal and each taking up it's own line on the page.

    however, i go to the next class and i say "the major form of sexuality used by humans is hetero sexuality. now, some claim that homosexuality, bi sexuality, bestiality, necrophilia, and all other manners of sexuality should be treated as no better or worse than hetero sexuality, but the fact remains that these are very, very, very small minority groups within human sexuality" then that is a format that presents a moral call. Certainly I didn't say this is right or this is wrong, but I separate hetero sexuality alone, first, and above all - and then make a point to list homosexuality in the same format as bestiality; which I imply is inferior due to it's numbers. I could throw pedohophelia in there too. The presentation implies that these things all belong together - there is a fundamental equivalency between them. They all "belong" on the same list, and Heterosexuality does not belong on that list. Which is why homosexuals come down so hard on attempts to put homosexuality in the same list as pedophilia - because they know that the presentation presumes a moral judgement even if one is not highlighted.

    I can provide plenty of information. I am not responsible for how you judge or perceive it.
    anybody aware of the "lies, damn lies, and statistics" quote ought to know that's bullhockey.

    No, we are not arguing over whether it should be taught because of the moral implications. YOU are arguing that. I am telling you that is not the issue, that morality is separate from education. Some folk, erroneously, want to make it a moral issue.
    and some folk, erroneously, think that you can pretend it isn't.

    hooray for a priori arguments!

    I pay teachers to teach information that is useful. Sexuality is useful information. YOUR job is to teach the values of the information that is taught in school.
    gosh, if only there were some way for us to pick and choose how to send our children to the schools that reflected our differences here....

    Ah... reverting to the 'ole "reading, writing, and arithmatic first" argument, now. I disagree. Firstly, there is value in learning about sexuality, and culture and the arts, amongst other things.
    these kids are kindgergardeners through 8th grade. we're not event talking about high school here - much less college. you have to be able to read above a third-grade-level before you can read, analyze, and appreciate shakespeare.

    Secondly our educational problems are not solely the fault of the educational system. They are the fault of a combination of factors: the educational system, lack of parental involvement, and student apathy, for starters.
    that is certainly true.
    Last edited by cpwill; 05-21-11 at 04:34 AM.

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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Homosexuality should be taught because there are gay kids in schools, I was highly confused when I was in school, and a "hey this exists" would have been nice. Not a moral judgement, but just an acknowledgment, and the scholarly opinion on the subject.

    the problem being you can't discuss it without implying equivalency, superiority, or inferiority.

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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the problem being you can't discuss it without implying equivalency, superiority, or inferiority.

    And the problem with that is what?

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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    You could say the same thing about history, why should this version of history be taught over this one? Because the majority of educators in that field say so, that is what should be the determination of what is taught in schools.
    and now you know why the fights over history are so fierce as well. because they are value battles.

    no one get's bent out of shape over the acceleration of gravity - it's not a value system. we get bent out of shape at books that ignore the founding fathers slavery, or accuse them all of being racist rich whites, because those two things imply value judgements.

    My whole premise is that sex education isn't good enough, and that is why I think STI's, and teen pregnancy numbers are too high.
    and I agree, which is why I want to get away from teaching the kids second-best methods and instead teach them the best method to avoid these things.

    yet - odd - when I argue that we should do that you accuse me of making a moral judgement, and it just so happens that that particular system is not the one that you agree with. now gosh, where could you have gotten the idea that teaching just abstinence only entails a moral judgement? why would I want to teach the kids something that I know will produce worse results for them?

    And you are making judgements about my views without knowing what they are, big mistake. I do want abstinence to be taught in schools, it should be an important part to any comprehensive sex education curriculum, I don't think it should be abstinence only though, because that is making a moral judgement, and taking morality out of the hands of the students.
    except - again - by implying equivalency between the systems you teach that as their relative moral worth.

    Which is who we should be thinking about the most in regards to this issue.
    why do you think parents care so much about precisely this issue? it's not your kids being given lessons antithetical to your belief system.

    Teaching all of the facts, is not making a moral judgement
    except that it does because - again - equivalency is judgement.

    This is a over simplistic view of the issue. Obviously we know how to reproduce, this is teaching them how to do it safely, if they decide to have sex, and teaching them about various other issue's with regards to human sexuality. Obviously you will say as a species, our issues regarding sexuality is more complex then just the survival of the species.
    quite so. but the more complex and intimate the issue becomes, the less I want another dictating to me or my child how it should be handled.

    You are making a moral judgement by allowing them to only teach this, by teaching everything, you are leaving it up to the students, and giving them the power of knowledge, which is what school should do.
    when you teach, you enable. that is, after all, the entire point of an education system in the first place.

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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    And the problem with that is what?

    those are value judgements. given that people will hold deeply held beliefs over the relative correct value judgement with regards to this fairly intimate yet critical topic... and given that we are discussing it in the context of the things we hold most precious in this world (our children).... the best solution is to let each of us go their own way without trying to force "our" preferred approach onto anothers' kids.
    Last edited by cpwill; 05-21-11 at 04:47 AM.

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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    I guess don't talk about being gay and maybe less people will turn out gay, is the idea?
    I know it breaks your little artistic rainbow heart to admit it but yeah, fewer children will claim to be gay if fewer people are trying to push it on them as an alternative lifestyle.

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    Re: Tenn. Senate OKs ban on teaching of homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    and success!
    Yes... that we agree that I am correct.

    provision of information comes along with presumption of presentation.
    No, it does not.

    for example, if i were to give you two competing scientific theories in a book, without telling you which one was or was not correct, you would merely assume that they were competing theories - that difference scientists back each and that the debate was ongoing. you would perceive equivalency as a judgement between them because that is how i have presented the material to you - in a equivalent fashion. they could be as mis-matched as heliocentrism and flat-earthism, but if what you are given is the material presented without difference between the two or conclusion, you will perceive equivalency. you may not accept or agree with it, but that is what is being presented.
    And everything you just said proves my point. The pronoun you used was "YOU". What is perceived is MY perception and how I evaluate and judge the information. If all that is provided is information, what values judgments come from it are MINE. This is the second time you have proven me correct. Thank you.
    actually it does - specifically it has to do with how you are saying it.
    Of course it does. That is why it is important to present it, informationally.

    for example, if i say "here are the major forms of human sexuality: homosexuality, bi sexuality, heterosexuality". that's an equivalency presentation.
    No, it is not. It is a list with no values presented. The "equivelency" is on YOU, the receiver.

    the student writes all three down on the list and there they all sit, coequal and each taking up it's own line on the page.
    As a lst. The judgments that the student places on that list are his/hers.

    however, i go to the next class and i say "the major form of sexuality used by humans is hetero sexuality. now, some claim that homosexuality, bi sexuality, bestiality, necrophilia, and all other manners of sexuality should be treated as no better or worse than hetero sexuality, but the fact remains that these are very, very, very small minority groups" then that is a format that presents a moral call. I separate hetero sexuality alone, first, and above all - and then make a point to list homosexuality in the same format as bestiality. I could throw pedohophelia in there too. the presentation is that these things all belong together - there is a fundamental equivalency between them. which is why homosexuals come down so hard on attempts to put homosexuality in the same list as pedophilia - because they know that the presentation presumes a moral judgement even if one is not highlighted.
    Sure... here you presented a value judgment, presenting a right/wrong dichotomy to the student. In the other situation, you left the value to the student themselves.
    anybody aware of the "lies, damn lies, and statistics" quote ought to know that's bullhockey.
    Information is information. One can present it objectively or subjectively. I would think that anyone would know the difference between these two.

    and some folk, erroneously, think that you can pretend it isn't.

    hooray for a priori arguments!
    Ah... a straw man argument. Never said it wasn't a moral issue. What I have said is that it isn't ALWAYS a moral issue. Some folks seem to erroneously think it ALWAYS is.

    gosh, if only there were some way for us to pick and choose how to send our children to the schools that reflected our differences here....
    Actually, I think there is. A school sets a curriculum. You don't agree with it, you don't send your child to that school. Seems pretty simple to me.

    these kids are kindgergardeners through 8th grade. we're not event talking about high school here - much less college. you have to be able to read above a third-grade-level before you can read, analyze, and appreciate shakespeare.
    Of course. And these other things I mentioned would be taught on those levels.

    that is certainly true.
    Agreed.
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 05-21-11 at 05:02 AM.
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