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Thread: As Debt Limit Reached, Agreement Still Far Off .

  1. #141
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    Re: As Debt Limit Reached, Agreement Still Far Off .

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    What the hell? Nobody is arguing that cuts don't have to occur. The president has proposed significant cuts over the next 12 years. The debate is not over whether or not there needs to be cuts, but to what extent.
    You threw out the 40% figure suggesting radical cuts in eradicating military and medicare (where you pulled it from...I have no idea) and I responded and now you want to act all "What the hell"? Dood...I dont control the budget but congress does and there needs to be a change in thinking which includes targeted across the board cuts. We seem to agree...so I'll leave it at that.

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    Re: As Debt Limit Reached, Agreement Still Far Off .

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    great!

    tell harry to tell conrad to write it up

    and hurry

    we're waiting, which, in times like these, y'know, we really can't afford to do
    I doubt that you understand the meaning of it, but "political posturing" is holding up the process, not legitimate discussion.

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    Re: As Debt Limit Reached, Agreement Still Far Off .

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    You threw out the 40% figure suggesting radical cuts in eradicating military and medicare (where you pulled it from...I have no idea) and I responded and now you want to act all "What the hell"? Dood...I dont control the budget but congress does and there needs to be a change in thinking which includes targeted across the board cuts. We seem to agree...so I'll leave it at that.
    This is a debate about raising the debt ceiling, not spending cuts.

    Yes, there needs to be spending cuts. But taxes also need to be raised and earmarked specifically for debt repayment. It is common sense that we need to start paying off the debt and the only way we can do so in a period when we are significantly cutting spending is with additional revenue. In an ideal world, tax cuts would lead to greater revenues which in turn would lead to more taxes, but our system will not work that way in a slow recovery. We need to raise taxes in order to generate the revenue so that we can begin paying down debt. Cutting from essentials like defense in order to pay down debt in addition to the cuts we need to keep from accruing more debt is simply not an option.

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    Re: As Debt Limit Reached, Agreement Still Far Off .

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Retarded. The effects of one president do not end the moment the next takes office and the present president is not completely powerless to invoke change as a result of the last president. The fact that you wish to play partisan rather than engage in common sense makes any discussion with you utterly worthless.
    With Democrats, the effects of a Republican president don't end until the end of the Democrat president's 2nd term.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: As Debt Limit Reached, Agreement Still Far Off .

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    With Democrats, the effects of a Republican president don't end until the end of the Democrat president's 2nd term.
    Yeah well dude, if a republican wins next year, and things don't improve we'll never hear the end of "obamas mess"

    So don't be too spiteful of that stuff. You're going to do it as well.

  6. #146
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    Re: As Debt Limit Reached, Agreement Still Far Off .

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    With Democrats, the effects of a Republican president don't end until the end of the Democrat president's 2nd term.
    Yadda, yadda, yadda. Yes, I know, the rhetoric of the other side is clearly more reprehensible than the rhetoric of your side.

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    Re: As Debt Limit Reached, Agreement Still Far Off .

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    at this point it absolutely would. we have a dearth of willing investors at current rates. The Fed is papering over the difference - but that is a very temporary solution. We have until June to convince many people who are currently not willing to invest in Bonds at current prices that it is a wise decision for them to do so. Even with sharp spending cuts in the Debt Ceiling Raise we may not succeed. Too much depends upon the unpredictable reaction of the Bond Market to such cuts - but that is the position we have put ourselves in.



    no, instead we saw the smart money flee, China and the other sovereign debt funds shift to short paper and move to reduce their holdings, and the Fed move to cover the difference. But the Fed isn't going to be there post-June. 70% of Bonds at current rates suddenly have no willing buyer. Price is a function of Supply and Demand. You are basically arguing that we can keep Supply, collapse Demand, and hope that the Price remains the same.

    We have to find a way to boost demand for the bond. Because what we have now is insufficient to keep our rates where they are, or anything even close.
    I disagree with you. QE2 has already been priced into the bond markets. We have known about a fed exit for a long time. Everyone knows it is coming. There is no reason for a spike. If history is a lesson, after the previous QE yields fell after the program ended. This corresponds with the overall goal of QE, which is to lower longer term yields. Also, the fed purchasing longer term treasuries (relative to before) has increased the average maturity of the debt held by the public, which means more people are buying/the treasury is selling more longer term treasuries than before.

    interesting - you claim simultaneously that there is massive uncertainty in the market, and then you argue that the bond most susceptible to uncertainty isn't demonstrating any such thing. Perhaps you should reexamine your arguments?
    Fine, even though I think it is ridiculous to say that this is not creating any uncertainty, I'll just say we need to raise the debt limit because not doing so would be dumb, plain and simple.
    Last edited by drz-400; 05-17-11 at 11:23 PM.

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    Re: As Debt Limit Reached, Agreement Still Far Off .

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    This is a debate about raising the debt ceiling, not spending cuts.

    Yes, there needs to be spending cuts. But taxes also need to be raised and earmarked specifically for debt repayment. It is common sense that we need to start paying off the debt and the only way we can do so in a period when we are significantly cutting spending is with additional revenue. In an ideal world, tax cuts would lead to greater revenues which in turn would lead to more taxes, but our system will not work that way in a slow recovery. We need to raise taxes in order to generate the revenue so that we can begin paying down debt. Cutting from essentials like defense in order to pay down debt in addition to the cuts we need to keep from accruing more debt is simply not an option.
    And yet in your post about raising the debt ceiling you said absolutely nothing about the debt ceiling.

    We agree...massive cuts in spending. I agree with raising taxes as well. But they should absolutely NOT raise the debt ceiling. No reason...no value. It would have zero impact on our credit rating because we would still have to pay our debts. Congress should maintain their own self imposed ceiling. Period. There is plenty of room to cut right now, including the defense budget. if people knew how much got spent just on conventions and seminars they would vomit.

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    Re: As Debt Limit Reached, Agreement Still Far Off .

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    And yet in your post about raising the debt ceiling you said absolutely nothing about the debt ceiling.
    Go back and read it. I was responding to a post about not raising the debt ceiling and potentially defaulting.

    But they should absolutely NOT raise the debt ceiling. No reason...no value. It would have zero impact on our credit rating because we would still have to pay our debts. Congress should maintain their own self imposed ceiling. Period. There is plenty of room to cut right now, including the defense budget. if people knew how much got spent just on conventions and seminars they would vomit.
    I estimated that we would be short about 22% if we didn't raise the debt ceiling.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059493492

    Why would you choose to drastically cut things like Medicare and the Military when it isn't needed? That would simply mean hundreds of thousands of government workers and health care workers would be laid off. The result of that would be less money that could be taxed and less money being spent, That of course would hurt business, and that of course would further reduce revenues.

    People like you really have a poor grasp of macroeconomics. The government is one of the largest employers in the country and suddenly eliminating hundreds of thousands of jobs would not benefit the economy.

    The other option is that we would default. That would be catastrophic.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 05-17-11 at 11:33 PM.

  10. #150
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    Re: As Debt Limit Reached, Agreement Still Far Off .

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    I disagree with you. QE2 has already been priced into the bond markets. We have known about a fed exit for a long time. Everyone knows it is coming. There is no reason for a spike. If history is a lesson, after the previous QE yields fell after the program ended. This corresponds with the overall goal of QE, which is to lower longer term yields. Also, the fed purchasing longer term treasuries (relative to before) has increased the average maturity of the debt held by the public, which means more people are buying/the treasury is selling more longer term treasuries than before.
    well it's a moot debate until June, but we'll see how the current debate plays with those. I just don't see where you are getting someone to buy up 70% of our debt all of a sudden without a rate climb.

    Fine, even though I think it is ridiculous to say that this is not creating any uncertainty
    given that both parties are in agreement that they intend to increase the debt ceiling, i have no idea where the uncertainty on that issue is coming from.

    I'll just say we need to raise the debt limit because not doing so would be dumb, plain and simple.
    no one is saying we shouldn't. we are only saying that we should do so in a way that will convince people we are moving dramatically towards long-term stability.

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