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Thread: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Agreed, we can no longer afford the unfunded tax cuts to the wealthy that added $3 trillion to our debt, or the military spending that is almost as much as the rest of the world combined, or the 3 optional wars in the Middle East. Where do I sign up to cut that wasteful spending?
    Just exactly where do you come up with these numbers? Democratic Underground Mother Jones?
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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Just exactly where do you come up with these numbers? Democratic Underground Mother Jones?
    No, actually, they came from CBO, the non-partisan Pew Charitable Trusts, and the Department of Defense:

    "In August 2010, CBO estimated that extending the tax cuts for the 2011-2020 time period would add $3.3 trillion to the national debt: $2.65 trillion in foregone tax revenue plus another $0.66 trillion for interest and debt service costs.[62]

    The non-partisan Pew Charitable Trusts estimated in May 2010 that extending some or all of the Bush tax cuts would have the following impact under these scenarios:

    * Making the tax cuts permanent for all taxpayers, regardless of income, would increase the national debt $3.1 trillion over the next 10 years.
    * Limiting the extension to individuals making less than $200,000 and married couples earning less than $250,000 would increase the debt about $2.3 trillion in the next decade.
    * Extending the tax cuts for all taxpayers for only two years would cost $558 billion over the next 10 years."


    United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Republicans have a problem. The American people are concerned about the budget deficit and know enough basic arithmetic to understand that it can result from higher spending or lower revenues. Republicans, however, insist that taxes must not be increased by a single penny; indeed, they argue that the government doesn’t have a revenue problem, just a spending problem. Therefore, they will only consider spending cuts in the GOP controlled House, which included another $3 trillion worth of tax cuts in the budget they passed on April 15."
    GOP




    Source: U.S. Department of Defense

    Project America: Defense
    Last edited by Catawba; 05-18-11 at 07:10 AM.
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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No, actually, they came from CBO, the non-partisan Pew Charitable Trusts, and the Department of Defense:

    "In August 2010, CBO estimated that extending the tax cuts for the 2011-2020 time period would add $3.3 trillion to the national debt: $2.65 trillion in foregone tax revenue plus another $0.66 trillion for interest and debt service costs.[62]

    The non-partisan Pew Charitable Trusts estimated in May 2010 that extending some or all of the Bush tax cuts would have the following impact under these scenarios:

    * Making the tax cuts permanent for all taxpayers, regardless of income, would increase the national debt $3.1 trillion over the next 10 years.
    * Limiting the extension to individuals making less than $200,000 and married couples earning less than $250,000 would increase the debt about $2.3 trillion in the next decade.
    * Extending the tax cuts for all taxpayers for only two years would cost $558 billion over the next 10 years."


    United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Republicans have a problem. The American people are concerned about the budget deficit and know enough basic arithmetic to understand that it can result from higher spending or lower revenues. Republicans, however, insist that taxes must not be increased by a single penny; indeed, they argue that the government doesn’t have a revenue problem, just a spending problem. Therefore, they will only consider spending cuts in the GOP controlled House, which included another $3 trillion worth of tax cuts in the budget they passed on April 15."
    GOP




    Source: U.S. Department of Defense

    Project America: Defense
    Stop providing them with facts. You know it hurts their brains. And you also know that quoting the CBO and DOD will just make them liberal commie leftest muslim terrorist harbouring organisations.. that is till the next time that the right uses the CBO and DOD as evidence of course!
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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Stop providing them with facts. You know it hurts their brains. And you also know that quoting the CBO and DOD will just make them liberal commie leftest muslim terrorist harbouring organisations.. that is till the next time that the right uses the CBO and DOD as evidence of course!
    Thats all well and good, and yes defense spending should be cut, but when you take the time to look at the numbers and the projections, medicare, Medicaid and social security will put america so far into the red, it's actually scary.

    Rgardless of how some of the righties on this board word their arguments, about "getting the leeching masses off the government teet bull****" they're not wrong about how much these programs are unsustainable. They are.

    So you can cut defense all you want, but in reality, its hardly the long term fiscal challenge the US actually faces.

    Partly, these programs are so badly run and organized, none of this surprises me.

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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Thats all well and good, and yes defense spending should be cut, but when you take the time to look at the numbers and the projections, medicare, Medicaid and social security will put america so far into the red, it's actually scary.

    Rgardless of how some of the righties on this board word their arguments, about "getting the leeching masses off the government teet bull****" they're not wrong about how much these programs are unsustainable. They are.

    So you can cut defense all you want, but in reality, its hardly the long term fiscal challenge the US actually faces.

    Partly, these programs are so badly run and organized, none of this surprises me.
    Our bloated military spending combined with the decade long wars in the middle east are no small spending item. Cutting them will make a big difference. Yes, M/M and SS have become unsustainable over the long haul, but not because of the programs themselves which are run with much less overhead and none of the profit or risks that a private system could provide.

    What must be reformed is the root cause of the problems behind the unsustainability. For M/M it is the fact that we have the most expensive healthcare system in the world. That must be addressed or healthcare will become unaffordable no matter who runs it. For SS, we must replace the money that was stolen from the fund through tax cuts by increasing the cap on contributions.

    That is the kind of reform that make the most sense to me.
    Last edited by Catawba; 05-18-11 at 08:12 AM.
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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Thats all well and good, and yes defense spending should be cut, but when you take the time to look at the numbers and the projections, medicare, Medicaid and social security will put america so far into the red, it's actually scary.
    Yes it does look scary... that is how it was designed to look. Like it or not, if you want to have SS, Medicare and Aid then you HAVE TO PAY FOR IT. And since these 3 things actually benefit the average American far more than a bloated military force, then I will say at any time.. cut your military spending first then see what is needed to balance things out. You need to raise taxes to pay for these things as well.. there is no way around it. Dump/raise the capital gains tax would help a ton. Stop giving tax cuts to companies that have billions in profits and force them to pay taxes for their American profits.

    Rgardless of how some of the righties on this board word their arguments, about "getting the leeching masses off the government teet bull****" they're not wrong about how much these programs are unsustainable. They are.
    No they are not. That is the whole point. They are only as unsustainable as you want them to be. If you want to have SS, then you need to pay for it. If you want to have Medicare/aid then you have to pay for it. This comes via taxes, like it or not. And when you cut taxes, then you need to cut spending across the board to pay for said tax cuts.. simple economics that the US right forgot when Ronald Reagan came around.

    This whole debate by the "righties" is about dumping these 3 programs because they are ideological against such programs since it does not give them money. Like it or not, what the US right wants is a class society of old, the very class society that was done away with pretty much by having SS and Medicare/Aid. And that is why the right has for decades cut away at the sustainability of said programs by "borrowing" or cutting money from them, so that they would become unsustainable. That way they could get rid of the programs and plunge the US back to the dark ages again. At the same time of course, their pet programs got more and more funding... of course...

    If you want to get rid of the middle class and put your old people in mass poverty as it was before SS, then by all means get rid of your programs.. but dont come crying when you become a 3rd world country because you cant take care of your old people and people are dieing of preventable and curable ailments .. no wait they already doing that.

    So you can cut defense all you want, but in reality, its hardly the long term fiscal challenge the US actually faces.

    Partly, these programs are so badly run and organized, none of this surprises me.
    HAHAH, they are run better than the private sector lol. Their administrative costs are next to non compared to the bloated private sector healthcare industry. Fix your bloated and uncompetitive monopolistic healthcare system first before touching Medicare/aid.

    Like it or not, what the right is proposing is out to hurt the vulnerable and elderly... what is next.. children in mines again?
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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Yes it does look scary... that is how it was designed to look. Like it or not, if you want to have SS, Medicare and Aid then you HAVE TO PAY FOR IT. And since these 3 things actually benefit the average American far more than a bloated military force, then I will say at any time.. cut your military spending first then see what is needed to balance things out. You need to raise taxes to pay for these things as well.. there is no way around it. Dump/raise the capital gains tax would help a ton. Stop giving tax cuts to companies that have billions in profits and force them to pay taxes for their American profits.



    No they are not. That is the whole point. They are only as unsustainable as you want them to be. If you want to have SS, then you need to pay for it. If you want to have Medicare/aid then you have to pay for it. This comes via taxes, like it or not. And when you cut taxes, then you need to cut spending across the board to pay for said tax cuts.. simple economics that the US right forgot when Ronald Reagan came around.

    This whole debate by the "righties" is about dumping these 3 programs because they are ideological against such programs since it does not give them money. Like it or not, what the US right wants is a class society of old, the very class society that was done away with pretty much by having SS and Medicare/Aid. And that is why the right has for decades cut away at the sustainability of said programs by "borrowing" or cutting money from them, so that they would become unsustainable. That way they could get rid of the programs and plunge the US back to the dark ages again. At the same time of course, their pet programs got more and more funding... of course...

    If you want to get rid of the middle class and put your old people in mass poverty as it was before SS, then by all means get rid of your programs.. but dont come crying when you become a 3rd world country because you cant take care of your old people and people are dieing of preventable and curable ailments .. no wait they already doing that.



    HAHAH, they are run better than the private sector lol. Their administrative costs are next to non compared to the bloated private sector healthcare industry. Fix your bloated and uncompetitive monopolistic healthcare system first before touching Medicare/aid.

    Like it or not, what the right is proposing is out to hurt the vulnerable and elderly... what is next.. children in mines again?

    Amen! Excellent description of exactly what's happened and what needs to be done!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government - The Washington Post

    If this doesn't tell you we've over reached our bounds, nothing will. Raiding pensions to pay for spending we cannot afford?

    CUT THE SPENDING. Period. Don't think short term and demand taxes go up, that's a blip, and harms longer term economic growth. Cut spending.
    Raise taxes on the super-wealthy. 49%. Raise capital gains over 500K - 40%.

    Cut all tax loopholes for luxury real estate, second homes, vacation homes. Cut all tax credits for luxury items like Gulfstream Jets, Yachts, Limos, etc.

    Cut all tax credits to big oil.

    Beging imposing fines on all delinquent defense contracts. Or claw back the money.

    Tax all executive bonus compensation over $99k at 90% - make it retroactive for the past decade.

    Nationalize Oil companies.

    BAM - no National Debt.

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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Raise taxes on the super-wealthy. 49%. Raise capital gains over 500K - 40%.

    Cut all tax loopholes for luxury real estate, second homes, vacation homes. Cut all tax credits for luxury items like Gulfstream Jets, Yachts, Limos, etc.

    Cut all tax credits to big oil.

    Beging imposing fines on all delinquent defense contracts. Or claw back the money.

    Tax all executive bonus compensation over $99k at 90% - make it retroactive for the past decade.

    Nationalize Oil companies.

    BAM - no National Debt.
    Okay I would not be that drastic hehe, but the idea is there.

    Income since 1999 has gone DOWN.. considerably in fact. But costs have gone up for various reasons. And that is the problem in a nutshell.

    Now SS goes up because of inflation and the fact there are more older people. Not much you can do about that unless you implement death panels or kill people off. Fixing the present problem is wayyyy too late since the baby boomers are retiring. However over the next decade or so that will naturally fix it self as well. But it should not need fixing because the money is there.. but successive administrations have stolen that money making the whole SS system non-viable.. most of these administrations being Republican.

    Medicare/aid has gone up because of inflation as well, but has gone even more up because of the over all healthcare inflation is higher than the normal inflation in the US.. in fact much much higher. On top of that, there are more people in the US (20 million or so since 2000), and more elderly. On top of that economic crisis causes economic ruin for many people who then rely on medicaid to get last gasp healthcare. All this contributes to higher costs in both programs and is not something you realistically can change unless you start kicking out people and killing off the poor or denying healthcare to sick and injured people.

    On the flip side, income has gone down. Personal income tax reciepts was about 880 billion in 1999, and is around 900 billion according to the last budget numbers in 2010. That is without taking inflation into consideration. To maintain just the same level as in 1999, then this years personal tax income should be 1.15 trillion but ... it aint. It is of course the same for corporate income tax. The only thing that has followed inflation some what is SS tax income ironically enough.

    So that is the crut of the problem.. higher spending based on natural growth and more over all spending (military) vs lower income gives a massive deficit and growing debt.. it is economics 101 and no amount of right wing spin can change these facts. The US needs to increase its revenue period, while dealing with the natural expansion of mandatory programs due to population increase and inflation. The only thing you can effectively control on the front is the much higher healthcare inflation.. fix that and the pain of medicare/aid wont be so bad as it is now.
    Last edited by PeteEU; 05-18-11 at 09:29 AM.
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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No, actually, they came from CBO, the non-partisan Pew Charitable Trusts, and the Department of Defense:

    "In August 2010, CBO estimated that extending the tax cuts for the 2011-2020 time period would add $3.3 trillion to the national debt: $2.65 trillion in foregone tax revenue plus another $0.66 trillion for interest and debt service costs.[62]

    The non-partisan Pew Charitable Trusts estimated in May 2010 that extending some or all of the Bush tax cuts would have the following impact under these scenarios:

    * Making the tax cuts permanent for all taxpayers, regardless of income, would increase the national debt $3.1 trillion over the next 10 years.
    * Limiting the extension to individuals making less than $200,000 and married couples earning less than $250,000 would increase the debt about $2.3 trillion in the next decade.
    * Extending the tax cuts for all taxpayers for only two years would cost $558 billion over the next 10 years."


    United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Republicans have a problem. The American people are concerned about the budget deficit and know enough basic arithmetic to understand that it can result from higher spending or lower revenues. Republicans, however, insist that taxes must not be increased by a single penny; indeed, they argue that the government doesn’t have a revenue problem, just a spending problem. Therefore, they will only consider spending cuts in the GOP controlled House, which included another $3 trillion worth of tax cuts in the budget they passed on April 15."
    GOP




    Source: U.S. Department of Defense

    Project America: Defense
    Instead of raising taxes why not spend less?

    Perhaps those Cowboy poet contests, as one example, aren't really essential, despite what Harry Reid says.

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