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Thread: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Yes Reform it by killing SS, Medicaide and Medicare. "Reform" is just code for "Punt to the next crisis." Entitlements are UNSUSTAINABLE.
    Yes, entitlements are unsustainable, and that's true everywhere. But the trick is to get the public off these expected entitlements once they become accustomed to them. That's the difficult part, and one most politicians try to avoid. In the end though, the citizenry are just as much to blame as the politicians.

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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Yes Reform it by killing SS, Medicaide and Medicare. "Reform" is just code for "Punt to the next crisis." Entitlements are UNSUSTAINABLE.
    Umm, "killing SS"? So someone who is 64 years old and has been counting on that money their entire lives should just be SOL?

    There are ways to draw down spending on entitlement programs without sending the economy into the toilet and without impoverishing the elderly. For example, SS could be made sustainable into the foreseeable future with a few modest changes, which I've outlined here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059484513

    Medicare and Medicaid are a bit more difficult to reform, but they are not intractable problems either. None of these entitlement programs, however, will be solved (or even mitigated) by the grossly counterproductive discretionary spending cuts Congress is now considering.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-17-11 at 05:12 PM.
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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    "Why not? The private sector does it constantly so why cant the US government?" - Pete EU

    It's probably only a matter of time before Obama goes after private pension funds to help pay for all his spending. And he'll do it in the name of "fairness".
    "Liberalism is a doctrine fostered by a delusional and illogical people and rabidly promoted by the mainstream media and ruling elite which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." - unknown

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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Umm, "killing SS"? So someone who is 64 years old and has been counting on that money their entire lives should just be SOL?
    You know, I've said a dozen times it should be discontinued over a 10 year period. Pay bulk load as much as we can, to each age block starting with the oldest to the youngest.

    AND THEN END IT.

    Personally my pity for them is very very very low. They voted for people that continued to sell them a song, while spending their money, and promising them SS would "still be there". Instead of demanding it be put right when they were oyunger, they now demand to get paid even though it's GONE, been GONE and went ON THEIR WATCH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post

    There are ways to draw down spending on entitlement programs without sending the economy into the toilet and without impoverishing the elderly. For example, SS could be made sustainable into the foreseeable future with a few minor changes, which I've outlined here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059484513

    Medicare and Medicaid are a bit more difficult to reform, but they are not intractable problems either. None of these entitlement programs, however, will be solved (or even mitigated) by the grossly counterproductive spending cuts Congress is now considering.
    You have this misconception the Government is supposed to be providing these benefits, it isn't, never was set up that way. FDR and later generations of politicians BRIBED people for votes, and now the bill is coming due.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    You know, I've said a dozen times it should be discontinued over a 10 year period. Pay bulk load as much as we can, to each age block starting with the oldest to the youngest.

    AND THEN END IT.
    So then don't tell me that "reform is just an excuse to punt it until the next crisis" unless you actually plan to end it immediately. You have your vision of long-term reform, I have mine. The only difference is that mine actually makes economic sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio
    Personally my pity for them is very very very low. They voted for people that continued to sell them a song, while spending their money, and promising them SS would "still be there". Instead of demanding it be put right when they were oyunger, they now demand to get paid even though it's GONE, been GONE and went ON THEIR WATCH.
    The people who are counting on SS are not necessarily the same people who voted for it, and in any case, punishing them because you don't like their politics is incredibly petty, childish, and authoritarian.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio
    You have this misconception the Government is supposed to be providing these benefits, it isn't, never was set up that way. FDR and later generations of politicians BRIBED people for votes, and now the bill is coming due.
    You seem to have this misconception that I care what people who lived in a third-world agrarian society in 1789 think that government is "supposed to be providing." You seem to have this misconception that I subscribe to your religion of Founding Fatherism. I do not.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-17-11 at 05:25 PM.
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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    So then don't tell me that "reform is just an excuse to punt it until the next crisis" unless you actually plan to end it immediately. You have your vision of long-term reform, I have mine. The only difference is that mine actually makes economic sense.
    How does maintaining that which is unsustainable equal economic sense and ending that which is unsustainable equal not economical?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The people who are counting on SS are not necessarily the same people who voted for it, and in any case, punishing them because you don't like their politics is incredibly petty, childish, and authoritarian.
    Unless you're over what? 80? SS's been around, and thus it's on your watch.

    Funny how you claim petty, and childish yet your options are keep paying for programs we can't afford or "people will starve!!!" and taking, by force, money from people, not saving it, not investing it, not protecting it is somehow.. benevolent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You seem to have this misconception that I care what people who lived in a third-world agrarian society in 1789 think that government is "supposed to be providing." You seem to have this misconception that I subscribe to your religion of Founding Fatherism. I do not.
    It's obvious you do not. You subscribe to "People are pathetic, worthless, stupid and NEED Government to save them from their own idiocy."

    I still believe in PEOPLE. You believe in Government.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    How does maintaining that which is unsustainable equal economic sense and ending that which is unsustainable equal not economical?
    It isn't unsustainable if the changes I suggested are made. It will reduce the growth of social security costs, and reduce the dependency ratio by increasing the working-age population. Those steps should be sufficient to make social security solvent into the foreseeable future.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio
    Unless you're over what? 80? SS's been around, and thus it's on your watch.
    You are advocating collective punishment against an age cohort because SOME of them voted in a way you do not like. Even if I granted you that it was acceptable to punish people because you didn't like their politics, there are plenty of people in that age cohort who never voted for any such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio
    Funny how you claim petty, and childish yet your options are keep paying for programs we can't afford or "people will starve!!!" and taking, by force, money from people, not saving it, not investing it, not protecting it is somehow.. benevolent.
    I don't think social security is necessarily benevolent. If I was designing a welfare state from scratch, I probably wouldn't include social security at all. But that doesn't change the fact that we have social security now, and we need to reform it without impoverishing those who depend on it. There is a way to fix the program that makes economic sense, and there is a way to "fix" the program that conforms to your ideological rigidity. Unfortunately for you, they are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio
    It's obvious you do not. You subscribe to "People are pathetic, worthless, stupid and NEED Government to save them from their own idiocy."
    Mm-hmm.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio
    I still believe in PEOPLE. You believe in Government.
    OK.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-17-11 at 05:41 PM.
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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It isn't unsustainable if the changes I suggested are made. It will reduce the growth of social security costs, and reduce the dependency ratio by increasing the working-age population. Those steps should be sufficient to make social security solvent into the foreseeable future.
    Isn't that what we're always told? Just reform it? WE can make it solvent!!! And then a few years pass, and crisis looms. Stop the cycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You are advocating collective punishment against an age cohort because SOME of them voted in a way you do not like. Even if I granted you that it was acceptable to punish people because you didn't like their politics, there are plenty of people in that age cohort who never voted for any such thing.
    Wait... the people against SS or were not for it... would be punished by ending it? You have an odd definition of "punishment".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I don't think social security is necessarily benevolent. If I was designing a welfare state from scratch, I probably wouldn't include social security at all. But that doesn't change the fact that we have social security now, and we need to reform it without impoverishing those who depend on it. There is a way to fix the program that makes economic sense, and there is a way to "fix" the program that conforms to your ideological rigidity. Unfortunately for you, they are not the same.
    You cannot fix SS, Medicaide or Medicare. You can only punt the problem down the line a few years. The three are unsustainable albatrosses on our present, and our futures.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Mm-hmm.
    Tell me, what NEED is there for Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    OK.
    I believe people will, make the right choices when they are left to control their own destinies.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post

    If this doesn't tell you we've over reached our bounds, nothing will. Raiding pensions to pay for spending we cannot afford? CUT THE SPENDING.
    Agreed, we can no longer afford the unfunded tax cuts to the wealthy that added $3 trillion to our debt, or the military spending that is almost as much as the rest of the world combined, or the 3 optional wars in the Middle East. Where do I sign up to cut that wasteful spending?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Treasury to tap pensions to help fund government

    I think many on the Left have a hard time cutting spending because they see it as jobs. Government is seen as a way to give jobs to the poor. If an agency head came to Obama and told him they can restructure their agency and do what they are doing now with half the employees and 40% reduction in cost, I think the administration might very well see that as bad policy. I think deep in their hearts they'd rather hire additional people and give everyone raises. They don't seem to realize this inefficiency leads to lower living standards across the board. The labor that an efficient government would free up would be directed in creating additional goods and services elsewhere, increasing the total economic pie. Maybe an over simplification and not giving them more credit but that is what their rhetoric seems to imply.

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