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Social Security Deficits Now Permanent

In fact, you know whats even funnier, as my memory recalls, when someone in the Obama administration made the statement that the US no longer had the capacity to drive global growth because of long term problems, you called it "Un American". Wouldn't it be amazing if I had that quote somewhere.


Oh wait, here it is... :mrgreen:



So, when someone says reality, this is your response.

Cooooooooooooool

Are you actually here to debate or just troll threads with out of context BS? ARE the GOP Perfect? Never claimed they are, are there politicians of all stripes that **** up, sure are. I believe in CONSERVATISM, not the Republican Party. This is where your commentary fails, where your logic falters, and why I'm mocking you now.
 
It is quite amusing to hear conservatives complain about S.S. as an entitlement and a bad thing, but then they themselves have no problem using it.

It's quite simple conservatives, if you think it is a drain on the budget, stop using it.

Just as soon as you quit taking it out of my paycheck.
 
You can tax the corporations all you want but they will just pass these costs on to the consumer, go broke, or leave. Looking for others to pay for political whims and societal security just doesn't work.

We can see that especially clearly in Europe right now. The problems they're experiencing now should have been predictable and obvious from the start yet people everywhere will ignore human experience and think that maybe, just maybe, this time it might work, The consequences are always debt and disappointment.

I have never said raise taxs on the rich to pay for fixing anything, Ive never said raise taxs on corporations period.
What I have said is no more tax breaks until were out of this mess and certainly no more huge tax breaks and have the middle class tons more to get us out of debt...thats just absurd and thats what ryan wants to do
 
It subsidizes health insurance, but insurance itself is not the issue

that's correct - in the context of the discussion of the unsustainability of our spending and entitlement state, it is the subsidy that is the issue. given that we cannot afford our current levels of spending, and certainly cannot afford the future levels of spending that we will see once the baby boomers are in the entitlements and they begin to really explode, the notion that we could somehow magically afford another such expenditure is openly ridiculous.

The reason insurance is expensive is because health care is expensive

yes and no (copying from another thread as it seemed to fit here):

we pay more for a variety of reasons. for example, we aren't rationed, like happens in single-payer countries. we have third-party-payments, like they do, but we have our insurance industry keep paying, whereas the governments in those nations have an ability to just say "no screw you." we also consume more healthcare. two surgeries usually costs more than one or none. currently we have the worst of both worlds - socialized costs with privatized benefits, and it encourages massive overconsumption with no price pressure.

how to cut costs? well, the point here is to distinguish between costs and expenditures. costs change with the prices of insuring and providing healthcare are altered. expenditures change when the money coming out of the government alters. now, the two are obviously connected - the lower the costs, the easier to lower the expenditures; but not solid.

the current system of ours, where we each compete to try to get the most healthcare for someone else's money, only leaves us all losing. costs and expenditures rise dramatically each year. there are, however, a few worthy counterexamples; and it is instructive to take note of what they are doing correctly:

Indiana offered HSA's, which have patients save money in tax-free accounts (where it grows and remains theirs forever and ever unless theys pend it) matched with high deductible plans to it's employees. Employees began to respond to price signals, and medical costs per patient were reduced by 33% and expenditures to the state were reduced by 11%.

Safeway has instituted a program that gave financial incentives to people who engaged in healthy behavior by allowing price signals in the insurance side of the market to work (Indiana worked on the medical side), and saw it's per-captia health care costs remain flat from 2005-2009; when most companies saw theirs jump by 38%.

Whole Foods instituted HSA's, and let's the employees choose what they want the company to fund. This institutes price pressure on the medical side (WF covers the high-deductible plan 100%), and their CEO points out that as a result Whole Foods' per-capita costs are much lower than typical insurance programs, while maintaining employee satisfaction.

Medicare Part D utilized market pressure on the insurance side, and saw expenditures come in at 40% UNDER expenditures - the only such government program in history to do so.

Wendy's instituted HSA's, and saw the number of their employees who got preventative and annual checkup care climb even as they saw claims decrease by 14% (in one year).

Wal-Mart's low cost clinics and prescriptions save us oodles of cash. Wal-Mart reports that "half of their clinic patients report that they are uninsured" and that "if it were not for [Wal-Marts'] clinics they would haven't gotten care - or they would have gone to an emergency room". Walmart - reducing costs and expenditures.

all of these utilize the markets to lower costs and expenditures; and they are just the begining. Not using insurance to pay for every procedure, checkup, etc. reduces administrative costs, which in turn reduces medical costs - and as HSA's catch on (assuming that Obamacare - which criminalizes them - is repealed) we will see the positive effects of that on costs and expenditures as well.

Dr Robert Berry runs a practice called PATMOS (payment at time of service). he doesn't take insurance at all - but simply posts the prices of his services. By removing the cost of dealing with mutliple insurance agencies, medicare, and medicaid, the prices he is able to list are one half to ONE THIRD of standard. That's huge.

what do all these programs have in common? They use market price pressure. People start to make better informed, and more conscious decisions once they are compensated for doing so.

current democrat plan is to reduce market pressure and cut straight expenditures, while taking steps that have historically increased prices. The idea is to have the IPAB decide when your care is no longer cost-effective to the government, and cut you off.

current republican plan is to increase market pressure to reduce both costs and expenditures, and do so in a way that lets seniors decide what is or isn't cost-effective. The idea is to put into place some of the strategies outlined above.

For that matter, health care itself is just one of many ways of paying for health problems. People can seek treatment, or they can choose to be less productive and/or die earlier because they're sick, or they can choose to take care of themselves through behavioral changes they'd prefer not to make. But one way or another, people WILL pay for the fact that health problems exist.

that is an excellent point, but look at what it does to the claim that Americans pay more for their healthcare. If I have debilitating condition X in America and it 'costs' me $1200 to get it fixed in 72 hours, then I've lost $1200. But if I have debilitating condition X in Canada, and it only "costs" me $200 in taxes to get it fixed after a two month waiting period - then I haven't gained $1,000. I've gained $1,000 minus 1 month and 27 days worth of pay at my place of employment.

you are correct to point out that costs are always paid, if not always in money.

Government-subsidized health insurance does not change this reality.

that is correct - it merely exacerbates it.

It merely affects the WAY in which people choose to pay for health problems (e.g. more people seek treatment, fewer people choose to forgo it and be less productive) and it changes WHO is paying for it. Therefore I reject the notion that this is a "new entitlement" (in the sense that a new expense is suddenly being created that didn't exist before), because people have always had health problems and frequently have sought health care to solve those problems.

people have always stopped working at some point and have always had to pay for themselves when not working. Since all Social Security does is alter who pays and how, obviously it wasn't a new entitlement...

the elderly have always had medical costs and have always had to pay them. Since Medicare merely alters who pays and how, obviously it wasn't a new entitlement, either...

the claim that because we have now socialized some of the costs it isn't a new entitlement doesn't pass the smell test. These subsidies ARE a new entitlement and they CERTAINLY represent a new major drain on the nations' fisc (that is already running in the red) as we move forward.

The important question is how it affects the overall economic costs...and I'm including both the financial costs and the hidden costs.

that's a good point, and it's why I think the examples I listed above are worthy of our attention as to how they managed to do so.
 
I have never said raise taxs on the rich to pay for fixing anything, Ive never said raise taxs on corporations period.
What I have said is no more tax breaks until were out of this mess and certainly no more huge tax breaks and have the middle class tons more to get us out of debt...thats just absurd and thats what ryan wants to do

We lowered the corporate tax rate here in Canada (16.5%) and the results have been hugely positive. It's these corporations who create the jobs, and we're happy to have them. Rich Americans are welcome here also.
 
It is quite amusing to hear conservatives complain about S.S. as an entitlement and a bad thing, but then they themselves have no problem using it.

give me the ability to shift my FICA taxes into a private account that's owned by me and you'll be amazed at how fast I do so. hell, i'll leave a third of my taxes still in the system, just to pay for others, and sign whatever you want me to giving me no right to future benefits despite my payments if you will let me do this.
 
Are you actually here to debate or just troll threads with out of context BS? ARE the GOP Perfect? Never claimed they are, are there politicians of all stripes that **** up, sure are. I believe in CONSERVATISM, not the Republican Party. This is where your commentary fails, where your logic falters, and why I'm mocking you now.

lol. Who said anything about Republicans?

You were saying something like this right?

They don't care about tomorrow, they care about today. What can I have today > what might have to be paid for tomorrow.

I'll quote it again, cause it's funny

And Duece agains adds nothing to a thread.

Why did America Elect such people taht have no faith in the Country? The shame of this Administration will take a generation to expunge.

Someone said reality, the US has fallen behind and cannot drive global growth, and they "have no faith in the country" and by extension I'm asuming you mean Un-American.

So really, you say "people should accept reality, but when it comes to you, that one piece of reality is "Un American".

So which is in Vicchio? You didn't really address my post, you can't just brush it off your shoulder,...
 
Social Security's challenges are mild compared to those of Medicare. Moreover, Social Security can be fixed with some actuarial changes (eligibility age, benefit structure, funding, or some combination of the three). Medicare's challenges are far more complex. In part, they result, from problems inherent in the nation's health care system, specifically the excessive cost growth problem.

This is first non-centrist post I've ever seen you post. You suggest we fix something which should not exist even close to this form. Social Security should have been changed 50 years ago, and not let go on and on and on, lulling this country into believing that a wrong principle, and un-American and un-Constitutional principle was the right thing to do. This whole business has gone on way to long, and doesn't even make good business sense. Same thing with Medicare, it socialism and it coming apart. Look at the European example (with their socialism), once the US economy goes under, they're finished over there.
 
This is first non-centrist post I've ever seen you post. You suggest we fix something which should not exist even close to this form. Social Security should have been changed 50 years ago, and not let go on and on and on, lulling this country into believing that a wrong principle, and un-American and un-Constitutional principle was the right thing to do. This whole business has gone on way to long, and doesn't even make good business sense. Same thing with Medicare, it socialism and it coming apart. Look at the European example (with their socialism), once the US economy goes under, they're finished over there.

lol.

Yet you fail to understand they've been quicker to react to their fiscal problems, ALOT QUICKER then you (considering you haven't done anything really).

Oh well.
 
lol.

Yet you fail to understand they've been quicker to react to their fiscal problems, ALOT QUICKER then you (considering you haven't done anything really).

Oh well.

He and his conservative cohorts (that is not all conservatives) fail to understand quite many things including this subject. It is funny that their only solutions is cut cut cut and lower taxes on the rich..
 
He and his conservative cohorts (that is not all conservatives) fail to understand quite many things including this subject. It is funny that their only solutions is cut cut cut and lower taxes on the rich..

Yeah but at the same time Pete, raising taxes on the rich isn't a magical solution either.

It takes across the board cuts and across the board tax raises.

But that would simply make too much sense, after all, election results are more important then the countries future, haven't you heard?

And that goes for both sides.
 
Yeah but at the same time Pete, raising taxes on the rich isn't a magical solution either.

Never said it was.. although it is a good place to start.

It takes across the board cuts and across the board tax raises.

Yep.. starting with capital gains tax.

But that would simply make too much sense, after all, election results are more important then the countries future, haven't you heard?

Yep.. and when the next election is done, then there is "only" 12ish months till the next round starts!

And that goes for both sides.

Yep, but no one is more hypocritical and blind than the present crop of GOP and "conservative" hacks.
 
Medicare's issues stem from the fact that making cuts hurts industry and thus affects the economy. A majority of healthcare funding in this country comes from Medicare. It's easy to say "cut medicare" unless you realize that at the same time you are saying "cut healthcare reimbursement to providers, thus cutting healthcare access/quality to patients." With a population that lives longer, and baby boomers entering the system (and likely stressing the hell out of it) the challenge of keeping medicare viable is astronomical.

I see what you're saying. I'm generally amused when I see hospitals/doctors threatening to stop treating Medicare patients. If that happens, pardon the cynic in me, 30-year-olds will start needing hip replacements. So, excellent point.

No matter what one's income, the Medicare deductible is (I believe still) $225.00 a year. There is no excuse for this model.

A progressive deductible depending upon one's income (or assets) makes far more sense and would save billions...both in actual dollars and, more importantly, in how seniors use the system. 47 million people are on Medicare. If 25% of them have incomes (or assets) high enough to justify a $2,500 deductible, that would save the system $27 billion -- just in deductible savings. Many of these people would change the way they use the system if the first $2,500 came out of their pockets resulting in more significant savings.

Further, the $99 (approx.) monthly premium for Medicare should be progressive as well. If that 25% number held, and those 25% were required to pay a monthly premium of $400 (an absolute positive bargain!), that's another $43 billion saved annually.

Raise the upper limit payroll taxes on Medicare/Drug coverage from its current approximate $100K ceiling, maybe to $200K.

Make some currently-covered Medicare procedures co-op pay -- such as routine podiatry care.

Levy some taxes that, instead of going into the general revenue fund, go into the Medicare pot. Example might be an environmentally friendly tax on bottled water. The US consumes 50 billion bottles of water each year x 10-cent tax into the Medicare fund = $5 billion. Junk food and soda taxes -- let's do some social engineering.

Taxing junk/soda could do double duty -- raising money and, perhaps, making us a tad more healthy. I couldn't find absolute numbers on soda, but I did find that, in 2008, the average American consumed 412 8-ounce servings of Coke. That's 15 billion 8-ounce cans of just Coke x 10-cents a can = $1.5 billion. (A 12-ounce can of soda has about 12 teaspoons of sugar in it, by the by.) Put a tax on fast foods...processed foods. Why not?? The stuff's killing us.

Levy a separate Medicare tax on tobacco and liquor products.

I believe that the same way we can handle Social Security's woes can be used, with modification, to handle Medicare's.
 
Did Europe piss on your kids in christmas eve or something?

Just because there were riots, does not mean anything to my statement, that the European nations are making a better effort then the US to tackle their fiscal problems.

Other then Spain and the UK, the countries that are real trouble are relatively small in population and as a % of the EU

Others like Germany are doing quite well, France is doing alright as well

Spain and the UK (especially the UK) has engaged in fixing their problems, the military cuts being taken in the UK would never pass in the US without a few heads rolling. The military cuts are not the biggest % cuts in the UK either. Spain would get a good bounce if it liberalized its job market (to be more like Swedens labour laws)
 
I see what you're saying. I'm generally amused when I see hospitals/doctors threatening to stop treating Medicare patients. If that happens, pardon the cynic in me, 30-year-olds will start needing hip replacements. So, excellent point.

No matter what one's income, the Medicare deductible is (I believe still) $225.00 a year. There is no excuse for this model.

A progressive deductible depending upon one's income (or assets) makes far more sense and would save billions...both in actual dollars and, more importantly, in how seniors use the system. 47 million people are on Medicare. If 25% of them have incomes (or assets) high enough to justify a $2,500 deductible, that would save the system $27 billion -- just in deductible savings. Many of these people would change the way they use the system if the first $2,500 came out of their pockets resulting in more significant savings.

Further, the $99 (approx.) monthly premium for Medicare should be progressive as well. If that 25% number held, and those 25% were required to pay a monthly premium of $400 (an absolute positive bargain!), that's another $43 billion saved annually.

Raise the upper limit payroll taxes on Medicare/Drug coverage from its current approximate $100K ceiling, maybe to $200K.

Make some currently-covered Medicare procedures co-op pay -- such as routine podiatry care.

Levy some taxes that, instead of going into the general revenue fund, go into the Medicare pot. Example might be an environmentally friendly tax on bottled water. The US consumes 50 billion bottles of water each year x 10-cent tax into the Medicare fund = $5 billion. Junk food and soda taxes -- let's do some social engineering.

Taxing junk/soda could do double duty -- raising money and, perhaps, making us a tad more healthy. I couldn't find absolute numbers on soda, but I did find that, in 2008, the average American consumed 412 8-ounce servings of Coke. That's 15 billion 8-ounce cans of just Coke x 10-cents a can = $1.5 billion. (A 12-ounce can of soda has about 12 teaspoons of sugar in it, by the by.) Put a tax on fast foods...processed foods. Why not?? The stuff's killing us.

Levy a separate Medicare tax on tobacco and liquor products.

I believe that the same way we can handle Social Security's woes can be used, with modification, to handle Medicare's.

It's clear you gave this a lot of thought, MaggieD, and there will be many similar solutions presented to mend the problem but, ultimately, the attempts to fix them will be political. That means that, just as these programs were introduced, they will not be based on economic truths but on political ambitions and unrealistic expectations.

Only competition keeps prices down and quality up. The United States. more than any other country anywhere, should have realized this, but the temptation to have free programs with others paying for them is a siren song that is difficult for many to ignore.
 
Did Europe piss on your kids in christmas eve or something?

Just because there were riots, does not mean anything to my statement, that the European nations are making a better effort then the US to tackle their fiscal problems.

He is baiting and trying to change the topic .. he does that a lot.. and has been reported yet again. Dont stoop to his level.
 
Did Europe piss on your kids in christmas eve or something?

Of course pissing is what Europeans do best though your suggestion that the might piss on Christmas presents seems a little too anti Christian, even for them.

It was you who said, "you fail to understand they've been quicker to react to their fiscal problems", yet failed to provide any evidence. I showed Europeans rioting as a result of their economic woes, along with photographic evidence.

Just because there were riots, does not mean anything to my statement, that the European nations are making a better effort then the US to tackle their fiscal problems.

Sure, and I'll take your word for that. Riot until all benefits are paid and the budget is balanced. A good Euro plan.,
 
He is baiting and trying to change the topic .. he does that a lot.. and has been reported yet again. Dont stoop to his level.

Actually I was responding to a post.

You reported me for changing the topic??

LOL!! Lefties love that!
 
Of course pissing is what Europeans do best though your suggestion that the might piss on Christmas presents seems a little too anti Christian, even for them.

It was you who said, "you fail to understand they've been quicker to react to their fiscal problems", yet failed to provide any evidence. I showed Europeans rioting as a result of their economic woes, along with photographic evidence.



Sure, and I'll take your word for that. Riot until all benefits are paid and the budget is balanced. A good Euro plan.,

And unless a person has been living under a rock anyone with a passing knowledge on current events would know that

Greece has made extensive government spending cuts, and increased taxes. Unfortunately for Greece the economy contracted drastically making the spending cuts seem not as big as a % of GDP

The UK has made massive spending cuts

About 490,000 public sector jobs likely to be lost
Average 19% four-year cut in departmental budgets
Structural deficit to be eliminated by 2015
£7bn in additional welfare budget cuts
Police funding cut by 4% a year
Retirement age to rise from 65 to 66 by 2020
English schools budget protected; £2bn extra for social care
NHS budget in England to rise every year until 2015
Regulated rail fares to rise 3% above inflation
Bank levy to be made permanent
BBC News - Spending Review 2010: Key points at-a-glance

The UK is mothballing its current aircraft carrier, selling one of the two it is contracted to build. Grounding and most likely selling its Harrier jets.

I am not sure of the response in Spain, or Portugal
 
And unless a person has been living under a rock anyone with a passing knowledge on current events would know that

Greece has made extensive government spending cuts, and increased taxes. Unfortunately for Greece the economy contracted drastically making the spending cuts seem not as big as a % of GDP

The UK has made massive spending cuts

BBC News - Spending Review 2010: Key points at-a-glance

The UK is mothballing its current aircraft carrier, selling one of the two it is contracted to build. Grounding and most likely selling its Harrier jets.

I am not sure of the response in Spain, or Portugal

Thanks for all of that.

Good to hear Europe is doing so well with their spending cuts. Any complaints yet, apart from the riots, about right wing fiscal extremism? Perhaps, for everyone's safety, the army should remain on standby.
 
Moderator's Warning:
This isn't about Europe. Stay on topic plz.
 
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