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Thread: Social Security Deficits Now Permanent

  1. #21
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    Re: Social Security Deficits Now Permanent

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    They have held power, and they have failed to do the right thing, because people are idiots. They don't care about tomorrow, they care about today. What can I have today > what might have to be paid for tomorrow.

    Look around you Jet, Credit Cards maxxed, people buying homes they cannot afford, cars they cannot pay for. Politicians keeping false promises of a better tomorrow for votes to today in return for spending. Progressives, of all political stripes, that's who I blame.
    Yeah, because even you would vote for someone who says...

    "Hey guys, from now on all our lives must be **** because we ****ed up as a nation."

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    Re: Social Security Deficits Now Permanent

    In fact, you know whats even funnier, as my memory recalls, when someone in the Obama administration made the statement that the US no longer had the capacity to drive global growth because of long term problems, you called it "Un American". Wouldn't it be amazing if I had that quote somewhere.


    Oh wait, here it is...

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    And Duece agains adds nothing to a thread.

    Why did America Elect such people taht have no faith in the Country? The shame of this Administration will take a generation to expunge.
    So, when someone says reality, this is your response.

    Cooooooooooooool

  3. #23
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    Re: Social Security Deficits Now Permanent

    It is quite amusing to hear conservatives complain about S.S. as an entitlement and a bad thing, but then they themselves have no problem using it.

    It's quite simple conservatives, if you think it is a drain on the budget, stop using it.

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    Re: Social Security Deficits Now Permanent

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yup. The entitlements have now officially shifted from being a source of extra "revenue" (yay free money! yay hopefully never having to pay it back! we have to pay it back? yay for making our kids cover the tab!) to a drain on a General Budget that is already running an annual $1.5 Trillion Deficit.






    heyyyyyy, now this strikes me as the perfect time to create a brand-new huge entitlement! Obamacare, meet your doom - you have predecessors and they've already taken all the money.
    Overstated just like foxnews...part of the scare campaign by the right...Im always suspect when either a right or left leaning outlet is the only one to report on something.
    Social security needs fixed but not by giving tax cuts to the rich and corporations
    Last edited by lpast; 05-14-11 at 10:49 AM.

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    Re: Social Security Deficits Now Permanent

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Overstated just like foxnews...part of the scare campaign by the right...Im always suspect when either a right or left leaning outlet is the only one to report on something.
    Social security needs fixed but not by giving tax cuts to the rich and corporations
    You can tax the corporations all you want but they will just pass these costs on to the consumer, go broke, or leave. Looking for others to pay for political whims and societal security just doesn't work.

    We can see that especially clearly in Europe right now. The problems they're experiencing now should have been predictable and obvious from the start yet people everywhere will ignore human experience and think that maybe, just maybe, this time it might work, The consequences are always debt and disappointment.

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    Re: Social Security Deficits Now Permanent

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    In fact, you know whats even funnier, as my memory recalls, when someone in the Obama administration made the statement that the US no longer had the capacity to drive global growth because of long term problems, you called it "Un American". Wouldn't it be amazing if I had that quote somewhere.


    Oh wait, here it is...



    So, when someone says reality, this is your response.

    Cooooooooooooool
    Are you actually here to debate or just troll threads with out of context BS? ARE the GOP Perfect? Never claimed they are, are there politicians of all stripes that **** up, sure are. I believe in CONSERVATISM, not the Republican Party. This is where your commentary fails, where your logic falters, and why I'm mocking you now.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



  7. #27
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    Re: Social Security Deficits Now Permanent

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    It is quite amusing to hear conservatives complain about S.S. as an entitlement and a bad thing, but then they themselves have no problem using it.

    It's quite simple conservatives, if you think it is a drain on the budget, stop using it.
    Just as soon as you quit taking it out of my paycheck.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



  8. #28
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    Re: Social Security Deficits Now Permanent

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You can tax the corporations all you want but they will just pass these costs on to the consumer, go broke, or leave. Looking for others to pay for political whims and societal security just doesn't work.

    We can see that especially clearly in Europe right now. The problems they're experiencing now should have been predictable and obvious from the start yet people everywhere will ignore human experience and think that maybe, just maybe, this time it might work, The consequences are always debt and disappointment.
    I have never said raise taxs on the rich to pay for fixing anything, Ive never said raise taxs on corporations period.
    What I have said is no more tax breaks until were out of this mess and certainly no more huge tax breaks and have the middle class tons more to get us out of debt...thats just absurd and thats what ryan wants to do

  9. #29
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    Re: Social Security Deficits Now Permanent

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It subsidizes health insurance, but insurance itself is not the issue
    that's correct - in the context of the discussion of the unsustainability of our spending and entitlement state, it is the subsidy that is the issue. given that we cannot afford our current levels of spending, and certainly cannot afford the future levels of spending that we will see once the baby boomers are in the entitlements and they begin to really explode, the notion that we could somehow magically afford another such expenditure is openly ridiculous.

    The reason insurance is expensive is because health care is expensive
    yes and no (copying from another thread as it seemed to fit here):

    we pay more for a variety of reasons. for example, we aren't rationed, like happens in single-payer countries. we have third-party-payments, like they do, but we have our insurance industry keep paying, whereas the governments in those nations have an ability to just say "no screw you." we also consume more healthcare. two surgeries usually costs more than one or none. currently we have the worst of both worlds - socialized costs with privatized benefits, and it encourages massive overconsumption with no price pressure.

    how to cut costs? well, the point here is to distinguish between costs and expenditures. costs change with the prices of insuring and providing healthcare are altered. expenditures change when the money coming out of the government alters. now, the two are obviously connected - the lower the costs, the easier to lower the expenditures; but not solid.

    the current system of ours, where we each compete to try to get the most healthcare for someone else's money, only leaves us all losing. costs and expenditures rise dramatically each year. there are, however, a few worthy counterexamples; and it is instructive to take note of what they are doing correctly:

    Indiana offered HSA's, which have patients save money in tax-free accounts (where it grows and remains theirs forever and ever unless theys pend it) matched with high deductible plans to it's employees. Employees began to respond to price signals, and medical costs per patient were reduced by 33% and expenditures to the state were reduced by 11%.

    Safeway has instituted a program that gave financial incentives to people who engaged in healthy behavior by allowing price signals in the insurance side of the market to work (Indiana worked on the medical side), and saw it's per-captia health care costs remain flat from 2005-2009; when most companies saw theirs jump by 38%.

    Whole Foods instituted HSA's, and let's the employees choose what they want the company to fund. This institutes price pressure on the medical side (WF covers the high-deductible plan 100%), and their CEO points out that as a result Whole Foods' per-capita costs are much lower than typical insurance programs, while maintaining employee satisfaction.

    Medicare Part D utilized market pressure on the insurance side, and saw expenditures come in at 40% UNDER expenditures - the only such government program in history to do so.

    Wendy's instituted HSA's, and saw the number of their employees who got preventative and annual checkup care climb even as they saw claims decrease by 14% (in one year).

    Wal-Mart's low cost clinics and prescriptions save us oodles of cash. Wal-Mart reports that "half of their clinic patients report that they are uninsured" and that "if it were not for [Wal-Marts'] clinics they would haven't gotten care - or they would have gone to an emergency room". Walmart - reducing costs and expenditures.

    all of these utilize the markets to lower costs and expenditures; and they are just the begining. Not using insurance to pay for every procedure, checkup, etc. reduces administrative costs, which in turn reduces medical costs - and as HSA's catch on (assuming that Obamacare - which criminalizes them - is repealed) we will see the positive effects of that on costs and expenditures as well.

    Dr Robert Berry runs a practice called PATMOS (payment at time of service). he doesn't take insurance at all - but simply posts the prices of his services. By removing the cost of dealing with mutliple insurance agencies, medicare, and medicaid, the prices he is able to list are one half to ONE THIRD of standard. That's huge.

    what do all these programs have in common? They use market price pressure. People start to make better informed, and more conscious decisions once they are compensated for doing so.

    current democrat plan is to reduce market pressure and cut straight expenditures, while taking steps that have historically increased prices. The idea is to have the IPAB decide when your care is no longer cost-effective to the government, and cut you off.

    current republican plan is to increase market pressure to reduce both costs and expenditures, and do so in a way that lets seniors decide what is or isn't cost-effective. The idea is to put into place some of the strategies outlined above.

    For that matter, health care itself is just one of many ways of paying for health problems. People can seek treatment, or they can choose to be less productive and/or die earlier because they're sick, or they can choose to take care of themselves through behavioral changes they'd prefer not to make. But one way or another, people WILL pay for the fact that health problems exist.
    that is an excellent point, but look at what it does to the claim that Americans pay more for their healthcare. If I have debilitating condition X in America and it 'costs' me $1200 to get it fixed in 72 hours, then I've lost $1200. But if I have debilitating condition X in Canada, and it only "costs" me $200 in taxes to get it fixed after a two month waiting period - then I haven't gained $1,000. I've gained $1,000 minus 1 month and 27 days worth of pay at my place of employment.

    you are correct to point out that costs are always paid, if not always in money.

    Government-subsidized health insurance does not change this reality.
    that is correct - it merely exacerbates it.

    It merely affects the WAY in which people choose to pay for health problems (e.g. more people seek treatment, fewer people choose to forgo it and be less productive) and it changes WHO is paying for it. Therefore I reject the notion that this is a "new entitlement" (in the sense that a new expense is suddenly being created that didn't exist before), because people have always had health problems and frequently have sought health care to solve those problems.
    people have always stopped working at some point and have always had to pay for themselves when not working. Since all Social Security does is alter who pays and how, obviously it wasn't a new entitlement...

    the elderly have always had medical costs and have always had to pay them. Since Medicare merely alters who pays and how, obviously it wasn't a new entitlement, either...

    the claim that because we have now socialized some of the costs it isn't a new entitlement doesn't pass the smell test. These subsidies ARE a new entitlement and they CERTAINLY represent a new major drain on the nations' fisc (that is already running in the red) as we move forward.

    The important question is how it affects the overall economic costs...and I'm including both the financial costs and the hidden costs.
    that's a good point, and it's why I think the examples I listed above are worthy of our attention as to how they managed to do so.

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    Re: Social Security Deficits Now Permanent

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    I have never said raise taxs on the rich to pay for fixing anything, Ive never said raise taxs on corporations period.
    What I have said is no more tax breaks until were out of this mess and certainly no more huge tax breaks and have the middle class tons more to get us out of debt...thats just absurd and thats what ryan wants to do
    We lowered the corporate tax rate here in Canada (16.5%) and the results have been hugely positive. It's these corporations who create the jobs, and we're happy to have them. Rich Americans are welcome here also.

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