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Angry Mob Chases Would-Be Flag Burner Off LSU Campus

shades said:
Somone burns an American Flag in my presence, I would simply walk over and put it out,
headline reads "Army vet puts out American flag set afire by Protester"

if he put his hands on me to stop me,
headline reads

"Flag Burner makes one last fatal mistake"
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Oh cool, it's the "I'm a hardass army vet" approach.
 
tessaesque said:
There is a huge difference in the acts. Burning the Qu'ran equates to an attack on God. You are, essentially, burning God. That isn't my belief, that is clearly stated in Islamic dogma. Burning a flag is not an attack on God. Burning a flag isn't an attack against people, either (at least not from what I understand). It is an attack against an existing establishment or an idea. Likewise, however, burning the Qu'ran isn't an attack against a people, but agains their God...their life force...their very definition of life and how to live it.

The flag doesn't tell us how to live, guarantee us a spot in heaven or hell, dictate our treatment of the people around us, or provide a moral code. The Qu'ran does. People have only recently (in a grand sense) placed symbolism on a flag (just like they place symbolism on the "don't tread on me" flag, or an eagle, or any other object). And that symbolism isn't universal. The very basis of Islam is that the Qu'ran is directly of God. It is a universally accepted truth amongst all who practice Islam.
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Your arguement is that is ok because the their beliefs are more important than mine?

The flag is a symbol held sacred by a large number of people. So is the Qu'ran. You can say that the flag represents an idea, so does the Qu'ran. The flag in representative of our country, of the American way of life. The American beliefs such as the freedom of speech that allows idiots like this guy to burn the flag. Your statements are exactly what I was talking about before. You seem to think that attacks against the things that symbolize my beliefs have less value than those of the Muslim faith. Your arguing that the Qu'ran is a universal symbol of people who believe it but the American flag is not.

You are incredibly wrong in your assumption that the American flag is only recently a symbol of the American way of life. The American flag has been a symbol of patriotism since its inception. Billions have fought for, and millions have died for our flag and the things it represents. You may undervalue its meaning and its symbolism because you cherish the Qu'ran but it doesn't change the fact that burning the American flag is an act of hate against a group of people and their beliefs. Just like burning the Qu'ran is. Burning the Qu'ran is not burning god, it is burning paper.
 
muciti said:
Your arguement is that is ok because the their beliefs are more important than mine?

The flag is a symbol held sacred by a large number of people. So is the Qu'ran. You can say that the flag represents an idea, so does the Qu'ran. The flag in representative of our country, of the American way of life. The American beliefs such as the freedom of speech that allows idiots like this guy to burn the flag. Your statements are exactly what I was talking about before. You seem to think that attacks against the things that symbolize my beliefs have less value than those of the Muslim faith. Your arguing that the Qu'ran is a universal symbol of people who believe it but the American flag is not.

You are incredibly wrong in your assumption that the American flag is only recently a symbol of the American way of life. The American flag has been a symbol of patriotism since its inception. Billions have fought for, and millions have died for our flag and the things it represents. You may undervalue its meaning and its symbolism because you cherish the Qu'ran but it doesn't change the fact that burning the American flag is an act of hate against a group of people and their beliefs. Just like burning the Qu'ran is. Burning the Qu'ran is not burning god, it is burning paper.
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Islam has existed for approximately 3000 years. The flag has existed for just under 250. In the scheme of things, the enormous symbolism placed on the flag (which almost every country creates, and generally solely as a marker of the land they control) is a relatively new development.

All I'm doing is seeing both sides of the argument. You have to truly understand Islam to understand how the Qu'ran is completely and utterly different from the flag. I understand in this day and age understanding Islam is difficult, but it would be helpful here if you did.

To you, burning the Qu'ran is burning paper. To me, burning the Qu'ran is burning paper. To millions and millions of Muslims, you're attacking God.

...Obviously, I can't make you understand the difference, and I'm sure it would be pointless to state that all "symbols" are just artifacts, items, ideas that really mean nothing unless you make them mean something...but it wouldn't matter. To you, the flag is more important, and that's fine. To me, the Qu'ran could lead to more dead people than the flag, so I worry about it a little bit more. Doesn't mean I value it more...
 
TheGreatSandeno said:
So because you attend an institute of higher learning you aren't supposed to express your beliefs? Or are you only supposed to have a certain set of beliefs?
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You can read my post several times, TheGreatSandeno, and nowhere will you find that I preferred a suppression of beliefs. I suggested possibly more effective methods.

Who reads letters to the editor in college? Who even reads the newspaper anymore?
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Indeed. And who can read a posting anymore without misinterpreting what was said?

The second tried a polite exchange of ideas by reading a statement, he was met with chants of "Go to hell" and had trash thrown at him.
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Well we can't deny them the expression of their beliefs I suppose.
 
tessaesque said:
I'm saying that a Muslim will view the burning of the Qu'ran as an attack against Allah, which is a justification for a call of Jihad against those instigating the attack. I'm not saying I'm for or against burning the Qu'ran, I'm saying that there are things to consider.
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So you should have some courage of your convictions, but not to the point where you might be threatened.

Muslims rule!
 
tessaesque said:
Islam has existed for approximately 3000 years. The flag has existed for just under 250. In the scheme of things, the enormous symbolism placed on the flag (which almost every country creates, and generally solely as a marker of the land they control) is a relatively new development.

All I'm doing is seeing both sides of the argument. You have to truly understand Islam to understand how the Qu'ran is completely and utterly different from the flag. I understand in this day and age understanding Islam is difficult, but it would be helpful here if you did.

To you, burning the Qu'ran is burning paper. To me, burning the Qu'ran is burning paper. To millions and millions of Muslims, you're attacking God.

...Obviously, I can't make you understand the difference, and I'm sure it would be pointless to state that all "symbols" are just artifacts, items, ideas that really mean nothing unless you make them mean something...but it wouldn't matter. To you, the flag is more important, and that's fine. To me, the Qu'ran could lead to more dead people than the flag, so I worry about it a little bit more. Doesn't mean I value it more...
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How long either has existed is not relevant. And you are not seeing both sides of the argument and that is the problem I have with what you are saying. The message you are putting across is that the symbolism of the Muslim way of life has a higher value than the symbolism of the American way of life. To you burning a flag is just burning a flag, to a muslim its an attack on American people, and to me its an attack on my way of life the same as me burning a Qu'ran.

All symbols are just artifacts. Burning the flag does not actually affect anything. Neither does the Qu'ran. Regardless what you think it may be pointless to state, the two are one in the same. It is hypocritical for you to condemn one while justifying the other.
 
Grant said:
So you should have some courage of your convictions, but not to the point where you might be threatened.

Muslims rule!
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I realize that by burning the Qu'ran I might set off some falling dominos that result in people dying...all because I was trying to make a statement that doesn't need to be made. I don't think a statement needs to be made in burning the US flag, either, but I also don't seriously think it would lead to multiple deaths at the hands of the offended.
 
tessaesque said:
It's hard to compare the two. The flag is a symbol of your birth place. The Qu'ran is a symbol of your entire ideology, life style, religious means of existence. We (Americans) tend to be a bit more practical about symbolic gestures designed to offend. Somebody burns a flag and typically we're reasonable enough to say "wait, that isn't me they're burning in effigy there". A Muslim (especially a radical) isn't likely to make that distinction.

We don't have to respond to the idiocy of others, and they have every right to be an idiot. But if what you're doing is likely to cause physical harm to other people, it should be considered. Burning a Qu'ran could lead to physical harm against white christians world-wide. Burning the flag isn't likely to lead to any physical harm to anybody (unless some idiot punches the guy burning the flag).
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When Muslims riot and muder they don;t ask wjat religion anyone is. They hjust murder.

They did shot a nun in the back during the cartoon riots because she was an obvious choice but they had no idea who the other couple of hundred people were who were killed. They just murdered them.

They did kill several hundred Christians during the beauty contest protests but, in general, they just kill. Madrid, 9/11, 7/7 and manh others are all examples of that.
 
muciti said:
How long either has existed is not relevant. And you are not seeing both sides of the argument and that is the problem I have with what you are saying. The message you are putting across is that the symbolism of the Muslim way of life has a higher value than the symbolism of the American way of life. To you burning a flag is just burning a flag, to a muslim its an attack on American people, and to me its an attack on my way of life the same as me burning a Qu'ran.

All symbols are just artifacts. Burning the flag does not actually affect anything. Neither does the Qu'ran. Regardless what you think it may be pointless to state, the two are one in the same. It is hypocritical for you to condemn one while justifying the other.
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Are you just cherry picking what I'm saying? My original point was that you can't compare the two. The explanation for that point is that there are much larger consequences to burning the Qu'ran than there are to burning the flag based on the ideology of those who have placed symobolism on that item. Americans are (generally) too practical to start killing everybody who identifies with that dude who burned the flag. Muslims are specifically told to kill over offenses to the Qu'ran. Whether you like it or not, there is a difference between the two.
 
tessaesque said:
I realize that by burning the Qu'ran I might set off some falling dominos that result in people dying...all because I was trying to make a statement that doesn't need to be made. I don't think a statement needs to be made in burning the US flag, either, but I also don't seriously think it would lead to multiple deaths at the hands of the offended.
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Hush you closet lib. We are supposed to blame violent Muslims for everything. :mrgreen:
 
Editor's correction in bold:

MrVicchio said:
So let's get this straight, some pathetic low life steals a war memorial flag, burns it, get's arrested, and this moron decides to stand in solidarity with him? Glad to see his fellow students come out and let him know what they thought of his... beliefs.

Tossing bottles was uncalled for, but he was lucky it wasn't 70-years ago, as bottles would have been the least of his worries.
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.
 
tessaesque said:
There is a huge difference in the acts. Burning the Qu'ran equates to an attack on God. You are, essentially, burning God. That isn't my belief, that is clearly stated in Islamic dogma. Burning a flag is not an attack on God. Burning a flag isn't an attack against people, either (at least not from what I understand). It is an attack against an existing establishment or an idea. Likewise, however, burning the Qu'ran isn't an attack against a people, but agains their God...their life force...their very definition of life and how to live it.

The flag doesn't tell us how to live, guarantee us a spot in heaven or hell, dictate our treatment of the people around us, or provide a moral code. The Qu'ran does. People have only recently (in a grand sense) placed symbolism on a flag (just like they place symbolism on the "don't tread on me" flag, or an eagle, or any other object). And that symbolism isn't universal. The very basis of Islam is that the Qu'ran is directly of God. It is a universally accepted truth amongst all who practice Islam.
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The bottom line here is that you expect more from Americans than you do from Muslims.
 
Grant said:
The bottom line here is that you expect more from Americans than you do from Muslims.
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I expect a specific reaction based on ideology. We aren't being led by "God" to attack those who attack the flag.
 
Grant said:
The bottom line here is that you expect more from Americans than you do from Muslims.
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I do. I expect us not to kill or get our panties all up in a bunch when someone burns something, because Americans are on average a hell of a lot more pragmatic and socially progressive than that.
 
Grant said:
You can read my post several times, TheGreatSandeno, and nowhere will you find that I preferred a suppression of beliefs. I suggested possibly more effective methods.

Indeed. And who can read a posting anymore without misinterpreting what was said?


Well we can't deny them the expression of their beliefs I suppose.
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Would you mind clarifying the intentions of your post, then?
 
tessaesque said:
I realize that by burning the Qu'ran I might set off some falling dominos that result in people dying...all because I was trying to make a statement that doesn't need to be made. I don't think a statement needs to be made in burning the US flag, either, but I also don't seriously think it would lead to multiple deaths at the hands of the offended.
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When people don't defend their beliefs of human rights and freedoms, free speech, etc, in any meaningful way, but allow others to bully you into respecting theirs, then the results are quite predictable.

The idea that you will not defend basic human rights because someone might get hurt has become a popular notion these days and each generation seems to have to learn the tragic lessons of appeasement for themselves.
 
Grant said:
When people don't defend their beliefs of human rights and freedoms, free speech, etc, in any meaningful way, but allow others to bully you into respecting theirs, then the results are quite predictable.

The idea that you will not defend basic human rights because someone might get hurt has become a popular notion these days and each generation seems to have to learn the tragic lessons of appeasement for themselves.
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I don't get your point. I can say and do what I please, but I'm smart enough to weigh the benefits and consequences first. If I went up to my boss and told him he's a stupid jackass and I hope he dies then I'm not going to have a job tomorrow....so even if I felt that way I'm not going to say it. If there is a problem I need to address I can find a better way to do with which will have less drastic consequences. So yeah, I wouldn't burn the Qu'ran, even though I support somebody's right to do it. I think it'd be a stupid, senseless way to insight violence that we don't need more of.

Having the right to say anything is amazing, and I appreciate that I have it. Having the wisdom to know when to stop saying something is almost as awesome.
 
tessaesque said:
Are you just cherry picking what I'm saying? My original point was that you can't compare the two. The explanation for that point is that there are much larger consequences to burning the Qu'ran than there are to burning the flag based on the ideology of those who have placed symobolism on that item. Americans are (generally) too practical to start killing everybody who identifies with that dude who burned the flag. Muslims are specifically told to kill over offenses to the Qu'ran. Whether you like it or not, there is a difference between the two.
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And my point is that there is no difference between the two. The fact that Muslim extremists will violently react to something does not give a symbol of their belief a higher value. Millions of Americans have fought for and died for our flag. Because we as Americans are more civilized than the Muslim extremists does not diminish the values of our beliefs. There are millions of muslims around the world who do not resort to violence. It is not a universally accepted belief amongst their community to react that way. And it does not take anything away from they way that they value the Qu'ran. Because extremists will act violently does not excuse the behavior. Value of a symbol is not created by how ignorant the people who believe in it are willing to get.

Whether you like it or not, burning the Qu'ran, American flag or any other symbol that represents a group of people is equally ignorant.
 
liblady said:
shouldn't we?
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Sure.

Nobody expects much from Muslims but that should not always be the case. Buying into and accepting their seventh century dogmas should not be considered for a moment as it would not advance civilization even a little. We should encourage them to be a part of civilized and open society, not treating them as hysterical adolescents with no sense of proportion.
 
muciti said:
And my point is that there is no difference between the two. The fact that Muslim extremists will violently react to something does not give a symbol of their belief a higher value. Millions of Americans have fought for and died for our flag. Because we as Americans are more civilized than the Muslim extremists does not diminish the values of our beliefs. There are millions of muslims around the world who do not resort to violence. It is not a universally accepted belief amongst their community to react that way. And it does not take anything away from they way that they value the Qu'ran. Because extremists will act violently does not excuse the behavior. Value of a symbol is not created by how ignorant the people who believe in it are willing to get.

Whether you like it or not, burning the Qu'ran, American flag or any other symbol that represents a group of people is equally ignorant.
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I know a lot of military men and women and they aren't fighting for the damned flag. When they speak of the ideals or rights they're defending it is almost always a fight to protect our rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They aren't defending a piece of clothe. Further, any muslim who would fight back violently against somebody or some group responsible for burning a Qu'ran would have the same argument you're trying to make. Neither argument is any better than the other, but it is much more damaging, and the consequences are much greater, if we decide to start purposely offending violent people to make a point.
 
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