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Thread: GOP Disputes Obama's Claim That Border Security Has Improved

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    Re: GOP Disputes Obama's Claim That Border Security Has Improved

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    you've SEEN this research? Or are you accepting their word?
    As you know it's pretty hard to prove a negative, but if I see a source that claims that a city is the kidnapping capital of the world but doesn't back it up, and then I see another source that says we can actually find several other cities that outrank that city in terms of kidnapping, then who am I going to be inclined to believe?

    The actual data that might shed light on this issue doesn't exist - definitions of kidnapping vary. Why should I believe the first claim?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: GOP Disputes Obama's Claim That Border Security Has Improved

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    The difference is one side has research to back it up, whereas the other side can't even tell us where their figure came from. If you can show me a source that shows how exactly the No.2 Kidnapping Capital of the World figure was reached, I'd like to see it.
    but without the evidence, you can't even be sure they are talking the same thing. one person could grant the award based on total kidnappings, and another factoring in population rates.

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    Re: GOP Disputes Obama's Claim That Border Security Has Improved

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    but without the evidence, you can't even be sure they are talking the same thing. one person could grant the award based on total kidnappings, and another factoring in population rates.
    The LA Times was the first to break the story about Phoenix being the kidnap capital in the world was the LA times, and even they failed to provide their methodology in the story.

    Mexico's drug war: Sharp rise in kidnapping in Phoenix - latimes.com

    So who is anyone suppose to believe? I think it's best to just stay away from this talking point because it's not been definitively shown by anyone that Phoenix is the kidnap capital of the world, while there are several sources who say that they can produce evidence to the contrary.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: GOP Disputes Obama's Claim That Border Security Has Improved

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    The LA Times was the first to break the story about Phoenix being the kidnap capital in the world was the LA times, and even they failed to provide their methodology in the story.

    Mexico's drug war: Sharp rise in kidnapping in Phoenix - latimes.com

    So who is anyone suppose to believe? I think it's best to just stay away from this talking point because it's not been definitively shown by anyone that Phoenix is the kidnap capital of the world, while there are several sources who say that they can produce evidence to the contrary.
    so you now accept there is no conclusive facts, and when you claimed the plain ole truth, you were just playing partisan bs?

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    Re: GOP Disputes Obama's Claim That Border Security Has Improved

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    As you know it's pretty hard to prove a negative, but if I see a source that claims that a city is the kidnapping capital of the world but doesn't back it up, and then I see another source that says we can actually find several other cities that outrank that city in terms of kidnapping, then who am I going to be inclined to believe?

    The actual data that might shed light on this issue doesn't exist - definitions of kidnapping vary. Why should I believe the first claim?
    so... you're saying not to believe someone who just tells you something, and instead, believe someone who just tells you something. Your source didn't back anything up. They 'told' you they had the information, and you accepted them at their word. Essentially, neither of our sources backed up their word with links, sources, etc.

    So... why do you accept one, and not the other? The only reason I can come up with is because they told you what you wanted to hear.

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    Re: GOP Disputes Obama's Claim That Border Security Has Improved

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    so you now accept there is no conclusive facts, and when you claimed the plain ole truth, you were just playing partisan bs?
    The conclusive facts are this:

    1) More than a few research companies and institutions say they have the data to back up the claim that there are a couple cities with higher kidnapping rates than Phoenix.

    2) Those who first broke the stories about Phoenix being the kidnap capital of the world (or the No. 2) had nothing to show when asked how they reached that conclusion, and the federal government couldn't confirm that claim either.

    So, which is a reasonable person going to believe? That Phoenix is guilty until proven innocent? Or that the city is innocent until proven guilty?
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 05-11-11 at 11:16 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: GOP Disputes Obama's Claim That Border Security Has Improved

    Well, it is Phoenix...
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: GOP Disputes Obama's Claim That Border Security Has Improved

    Having the fence compete doesn't ensure border security. Obama even said that. The only thing that will ensure border security is actual reform/over-haul, which Obama wants which includes

    * Fixing the naturalization process so a waiting list doesn't build up to the point of uselessness
    * Work visas
    * Dream Act - fick any libertarian that doesn't agree with something like it. Seriously, you want to deport people in college or the military who had no say in coming to the US? That said, it should only be a 1 time deal
    * Expanding the naturalization process to get the right type of people into the US
    * Dealing with the ~8million in the US. Obama has supported allowing them to stay in the country, get some sort of status, pay back taxes, pay fines and then sending them to the back of the line for citizenship. How is that bad?

    etc
    Last edited by xpiher; 05-12-11 at 01:27 AM.

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    Re: GOP Disputes Obama's Claim That Border Security Has Improved

    Quote Originally Posted by xpiher View Post
    Having the fence compete doesn't ensure border security. Obama even said that. The only thing that will ensure border security is actual reform/over-haul, which Obama wants which includes

    * Fixing the naturalization process so a waiting list doesn't build up to the point of uselessness
    * Work visas
    * Dream Act - fick any libertarian that doesn't agree with something like it. Seriously, you want to deport people in college or the military who had no say in coming to the US? That said, it should only be a 1 time deal
    * Expanding the naturalization process to get the right type of people into the US
    * Dealing with the ~8million in the US. Obama has supported allowing them to stay in the country, get some sort of status, pay back taxes, pay fines and then sending them to the back of the line for citizenship. How is that bad?

    etc
    xpiher - I am in complete agreement. Illegal immigration is a demand-side issue, and should be treated as such.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: GOP Disputes Obama's Claim That Border Security Has Improved

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Of course, they are only saying this cause Obama is black.
    Racism is going to be the key theme the Democrats play next year.

    Check out this guy's ad. Racism so blatant would have the Left screaming if an American was running the ad. Since it's a Democrat, they'll promote it.

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