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Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

Boo Radley said:
These are fairly widely known stats. But I'll give you some links:

A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting, than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting, a criminal assault or homicide, or an attempted or completed suicide than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
Journal of Trauma, 1998

Stop Handgun Violence: The Facts

The largest category of firearms fatality is suicide, not homicide. In 1997, 54 percent of all gun deaths were suicides, and 42 percent were homicides.16

(snip)

Self Defense

For every time a gun in the home is used in a self-defense homicide, a gun will be used in�


1.3 unintentional deaths

4.6 criminal homicides

37 suicides22

VPC - Handgun Ban Fact Sheet

In 2007, there were 613 fatal firearm accidents in the United States, constituting 0.5% of 123,706 fatal accidents that year.[120]

(snip)

In 2007, there were roughly 15,698 emergency room visits for non-fatal firearm accidents . . . .

Gun Control

The last one, though hardly a non-biased site, clearly shows over 16,000 people shot themselves in 2007.
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not that crap again which counts as a gun in the house one that a home invader brings into the house


VPC-the most anti gun lie filled hack site going
 
TurtleDude said:
really, when was the last time you heard of an accidental shooting at say the Grand American trap shoot-8000 people every one of them with a shotgun? the National Rifle and Pistol Matches at Camp perry that run a month-all sorts of scary looking "assault weapons"
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Don't you try to use your logic here, sir! There's going to be gunfights over who got the better grade in class. Sporting events will turn into all out warfare. Debate teams will just shoot anyone with a dissenting opinion.The whole campus will be knee deep in blood! This is the end of college as we know it!!!! :shock:

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
 
Boo Radley said:
What I'm saying is in today's world, this is really no longer the tool for it.
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In today's world anything can happen at any moment ....Like 2 or 3 massive earthquakes hit the US. Everything is in shambles. Looting galore, etc

The whole point is that you are armed because you never know where or when an attack can take place.

Just like you wear a ****ing seatbelt when you don't expect an accident. If you expected bs trouble, you wouldn't go there. A seatbelt and a handgun are for the unexpected.
 
ric27 said:
In today's world anything can happen at any moment ....Like 2 or 3 massive earthquakes hit the US. Everything is in shambles. Looting galore, etc

The whole point is that you are armed because you never know where or when an attack can take place.

Just like you wear a ****ing seatbelt when you don't expect an accident. If you expected bs trouble, you wouldn't go there. A seatbelt and a handgun are for the unexpected.
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And yet, somehow, someway, many live their entire lives without ever having to use a gun. I've had a few accidents in my life, but never had a situation where I needed a gun. Some for whatever reason see the need where there largely isn't one.

But let's be clear, I'm only arguing for restriction in some places. No need for a gun on campus, or in the classroom.
 
Boo Radley said:
I'm not so sure, but I have tried to find even these. Under this search: Gun violence at the University of Colorado. I found these: Google

So far working down it I have not found anything yet.
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That's because even though all these "reckless kids" can carry guns, we've actually had ZERO problems from it. And there's your data.

Boo Radley said:
Again, I have been doing searches and have not found anything. I was under the assumption you ahd already done this and thought you could provide a link.
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There aren't many Universities which allow guns on campus, there's maybe 25-30 I think thus far (with Texas you'll get another 10 or so probably). But of these schools, none have had any problems from students carrying weapons on campus. Oh snap, there goes your "they're dumb kids" argument.

Boo Radley said:
Would you really argue this is equal to slavery in any way? Seriously, no is losing anything by not having a gun in the classroom.
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They're not equal, I'm just saying that we've had laws that were accepted which weren't right. Slavery of course infringes well more on an individual's liberty; but you're still advocating the use of government force against the individual and thus you still must prove your side.

Boo Radley said:
What I'm saying is in today's world, this is really no longer the tool for it.
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It's the most basic of tools necessary to get the job done.
 
TurtleDude said:
not that crap again which counts as a gun in the house one that a home invader brings into the house


VPC-the most anti gun lie filled hack site going
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I'm sorry you don't like that the stats don't back you. I understand, which is why pro gun folks have to resort to trickery to boost their numbers. But, the fact is you are more likely to shoot yourself or someone close to you than a criminal statisitcally.

:coffeepap
 
Ikari said:
That's because even though all these "reckless kids" can carry guns, we've actually had ZERO problems from it. And there's your data.
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I don't kow that we can make that leap. While it is possibe a school in Colorado might do well for a time, the risk grows as the numbers grow.



There aren't many Universities which allow guns on campus, there's maybe 25-30 I think thus far (with Texas you'll get another 10 or so probably). But of these schools, none have had any problems from students carrying weapons on campus. Oh snap, there goes your "they're dumb kids" argument.
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Yet, if true.

They're not equal, I'm just saying that we've had laws that were accepted which weren't right. Slavery of course infringes well more on an individual's liberty; but you're still advocating the use of government force against the individual and thus you still must prove your side.
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I'm advocating reasonable restrictions, which have been allowed. Reasonable restrictions are very different from unreasonable ones.

It's the most basic of tools necessary to get the job done.
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It's the get the job done part that I'm speaking to. We will never get the job done today with the weapons we can possibily have.
 
Boo Radley said:
And yet, somehow, someway, many live their entire lives without ever having to use a gun. I've had a few accidents in my life, but never had a situation where I needed a gun. Some for whatever reason see the need where there largely isn't one.

But let's be clear, I'm only arguing for restriction in some places. No need for a gun on campus, or in the classroom.
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Somehow, certain people also go their entire lives without needing fire or flood insurance. Does that make those that do decide to carry insurance against the possibility of fire or flood wrong? Of course not, it's simply a matter of preparing as best as possible for all circumstances. No one buys fire or flood insurance and hopes that their home is destroyed.

Similarly, those who choose to carry a gun are certainly not guaranteed to need it, in fact, while there are some wackos out there looking for trouble the majority of citizens who carry hope they never have to defend themselves, but they are prepared in the event that they have to. Again, it's simply a matter of preparing as best as possible for all circumstances.

I think it's absolutely commendable that you've never been in a situation where you need a gun, just as I am happy to hear that people have never had to experience a house fire or flooding. However, other people's homes are burned down and flooded on a daily basis, just as other people are victims of violent crimes on a daily basis.

Bottom line, you're not wrong if you choose to forego insurance and I'm not right if I choose to buy as much coverage as possible. We each decide what is most important to us and how best to protect it, and that's not a decision that anyone else, including government should be able to make for us.
 
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theangryamerican said:
Somehow, certain people also go their entire lives without needing fire or flood insurance. Does that make those that do decide to carry insurance against the possibility of fire or flood wrong? Of course not, it's simply a matter of preparing as best as possible for all circumstances. No one buys fire or flood insurance and hopes that their home is destroyed.

Similarly, those who choose to carry a gun are certainly not guaranteed to need it, in fact, while there are some wackos out there looking for trouble the majority of citizens who carry hope they never have to defend themselves, but they are prepared in the event that they have to. Again, it's simply a matter of preparing as best as possible for all circumstances.

I think it's absolutely commendable that you've never been in a situation where you need a gun, just as I am happy to hear that people have never had to experience a house fire or flooding. However, other peoples homes are burned down and flooded on a daily basis, just as other people are victims of violent crimes on a daily basis.

Bottom line, you're not wrong if you choose to forego insurance and I'm not right if I choose to buy as much coverage as possible. We each decide what is most important to us and how best to protect it, and that's not a decision that anyone else, including government should be able to make for us.
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At some level I agree with you. And if you have one in your home or risk areas, I won't complain. But when you provide a greater risk than you're likely to face, I pause. This is how I see guns in the classroom. The risk is much less than nearly anywhere in life, and guns merely add a risk that wasn't there to begin with.

And for me, the user of the tool matters. And while I meet many bright, intelligent and reasonable young people every day, I also met some that scare me with them trying to opperate a bicycle, and would not feel comfortable with them armed. BTW, I know professors I feel the same way about.

The fact is there really isn't a need that would justify any having a gun on campus.
 
Boo Radley said:
At some level I agree with you. And if you have one in your home or risk areas, I won't complain. But when you provide a greater risk than you're likely to face, I pause. This is how I see guns in the classroom. The risk is much less than nearly anywhere in life, and guns merely add a risk that wasn't there to begin with.

And for me, the user of the tool matters. And while I meet many bright, intelligent and reasonable young people every day, I also met some that scare me with them trying to opperate a bicycle, and would not feel comfortable with them armed. BTW, I know professors I feel the same way about.

The fact is there really isn't a need that would justify any having a gun on campus.
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If somone is a responsible gun owner, there's no reason for them not to have a gun on a campus. A modern gun, handled properly, is inherently very safe and anyone who would tell you otherwise is pushing an agenda.There are already laws in place that punish those who misuse their firearms, either intentionally or negligently. There's no logical reason to restrict the rights of everyone based on the few who might pose a problem (and would then be dealt with accordingly.)
 
theangryamerican said:
If somone is a responsible gun owner, there's no reason for them not to have a gun on a campus. A modern gun, handled properly, is inherently very safe and anyone who would tell you otherwise is pushing an agenda.There are already laws in place that punish those who misuse their firearms, either intentionally or negligently. There's no logical reason to restrict the rights of everyone based on the few who might pose a problem (and would then be dealt with accordingly.)
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it is not the gun that is the problem. It's almost always the user. And yes, the few are reason enough. It only takes one. Having a gun on campus creates a problem with no risk to justify accepting that problem.
 
Boo Radley said:
it is not the gun that is the problem. It's almost always the user. And yes, the few are reason enough. It only takes one. Having a gun on campus creates a problem with no risk to justify accepting that problem.
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...but you can't use the one exception to the rule to create a new rule can you? If it only takes one gun accident to justify keeping all guns off campus, by the same reasoning wouldn't it only take one violent crime on campus to allow all students the ability to defend themselves against violent crime? After all, all it takes is one to prove that the danger is there, right? I think we both know it's easy to find stories about violent crime on college campuses...

Again, there are laws that already address the misuse of firearms. Even the most ignorant person in the world could safely carry a gun on their belt as long they don't touch it, but the second they misuse it in any way, the law will come into play. TX is not an open carry state, so that means that anyone carrying on campus would have their gun tucked away, out of the public eye. Also in TX, you still have to go through a permit process before you can carry. To even allow a concealed weapon to show in a non-life threatening situation is against the law and subject to stiff punishments. The few people that make the choice to carry aren't going to be waving their guns around, passing them to friends, showing them off. It just doesn't work that way.
 
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theangryamerican said:
...but you can't use the one exception to the rule to create a new rule can you? If it only takes one gun accident to justify keeping all guns off campus, by the same reasoning wouldn't it only take one violent crime on campus to allow all students the ability to defend themselves against violent crime? After all, all it takes is one to prove that the danger is there, right? I think we both know it's easy to find stories about violent crime on college campuses...

Again, there are laws that already address the misuse of firearms. Even the most ignorant person in the world could safely carry a gun on their belt as long they don't touch it, but the second they misuse it in any way, the law will come into play. TX is not an open carry state, so that means that anyone carrying on campus would have their gun tucked away, out of the public eye. Also in TX, you still have to go through a permit process before you can carry. To even allow a concealed weapon to show in a non-life threatening situation is against the law and subject to stiff punishments. The few people that make the choice to carry aren't going to be waving their guns around, passing them to friends, showing them off. It just doesn't work that way.
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It's not a new rule. the new rule is allowing guns on campus. But yes, you can have a rule meant to curtail a small percentage of people. As it only takes one to cause the problem you want to prevent.

And we have policies against violence of all kinds as well. Knifes aren't allowed either. No weapons are. Fighting will also get you arrested.

The risk of having guns are campus outwiegh any possible reason for it, as there is really no need for a weapon on campus. We don't really have any siginifcant troubles on campus that would warrant any one needing to be armed.
 
Boo Radley said:
It's not a new rule. the new rule is allowing guns on campus. But yes, you can have a rule meant to curtail a small percentage of people. As it only takes one to cause the problem you want to prevent.
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I was speaking figuratively about creating new rules based on a single exception, but technically, the right to carry firearms existed long before "Gun Free Zones." So I think you could still call it the "new rule" comparatively and not compromise my argument.

Boo Radley said:
And we have policies against violence of all kinds as well. Knifes aren't allowed either. No weapons are. Fighting will also get you arrested.
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I know of not one violent act that has been stopped preemptively by campus policy. I know of many violent crimes that have taken place on campus properties. It would seem that if the school cannot seriously protect its students, perhaps the students should be able to take responsibility for themselves.

Boo Radley said:
The risk of having guns are campus outwiegh any possible reason for it, as there is really no need for a weapon on campus. We don't really have any siginifcant troubles on campus that would warrant any one needing to be armed.
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Again, this is not true. Guns are inherently safe and there are already laws in place to punish the actual gun owners who misuse their weapon. People cannot be told when they do or do not need a right. By definition, it's theirs to exercise at their choosing until it's legally proven that the individual should have that right restricted.

I can honestly appreciate your position, Boo. You don't feel the need to carry a gun, and again, that's fine by me. I don't demand that all citizens must be armed. You feel that guns around you pose an inherent threat. That's also fine by me. You're able to form whatever opinions you like. However, until my right to bear arms actually infringes on your rights, we should both be able to legally go about exercising those rights respectively.

It's often said that "My right to swing my fist ends when it meets your face." I've never heard it said "My right to swing my fists ends when you decide you don't like the way I swing."
 
I taught a place that was listed once as the third most violent campus in America, and I still never saw need for a gun. In fact, if most of those situations had seen a gun pulled, the violence would have esculated. The more people armed, the more likely someone would shoot back.

Our largest enemy in life is often fear. We then try to delude ourself into thinking being armed makes us safe, and yet the numbers say otherwise. More often than not, we shoot ourselves. Now, we can't legislate away all risks. And living is inherently a risky proposition, but there are places where we can and should impose restrictions. I think the classroom is one of those places. By and large, it's a safe place. Even on the campus I spoke of, very little happened that would warrant being armed. And without a weapon, I handled every problematic situation that came up. There's no substitute for sound thinking and reasoing.

Now, i won't support a lwa that says you can't have one at home. I won't say that you can't carry one anywhere. Heck, even though I like the idea of such a law, I won't even argue to forbid stupid people from owning one. Well, I may rethink that one. ;) But I will argue that a safe palce like a school, populated by young people, that we can and should restrict guns.
 
Boo Radley said:
I taught a place that was listed once as the third most violent campus in America
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you taught a place?

yet you don't know that the plural of knife isn't knifes?

astonishing
 
Boo Radley said:
I don't kow that we can make that leap. While it is possibe a school in Colorado might do well for a time, the risk grows as the numbers grow.
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Guns have been legal on our campuses in general for quite some time. The only school which redesignated itself so it could ban guns is Boulder. Almost all other Colorado Universities allow guns and have allowed guns for some time. Now these are kids, right? Their brains are fully developed, right? With that many students over that long of a time period, we should have seen your senario work out a few times. This is a generalized argument you've made about it being more dangerous on campuses which allow guns. So why is it, in the dozen or so Universities in Colorado which allow guns, we haven't seen the breakdown? Why has your guess not become reality?

Boo Radley said:
Yet, if true.
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If if's and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry christmas. I'm not looking for your guess, I'm looking for you to use numbers to back your call for continued government force against the rights and liberties of the individual.

Boo Radley said:
I'm advocating reasonable restrictions, which have been allowed. Reasonable restrictions are very different from unreasonable ones.
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You're calling for government force to be used. There can be reasonable restrictions, but with reasonable comes proof. I would say that you calling for restrictions based only on your assumptions and guesses is not reasonable. But rather biased.

Boo Radley said:
It's the get the job done part that I'm speaking to. We will never get the job done today with the weapons we can possibily have.
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You may say that, but I'm going to try to make sure that people have the means to exert their force over the government should it ever need to be done.
 
Ikari said:
Guns have been legal on our campuses in general for quite some time. The only school which redesignated itself so it could ban guns is Boulder. Almost all other Colorado Universities allow guns and have allowed guns for some time. Now these are kids, right? Their brains are fully developed, right? With that many students over that long of a time period, we should have seen your senario work out a few times. This is a generalized argument you've made about it being more dangerous on campuses which allow guns. So why is it, in the dozen or so Universities in Colorado which allow guns, we haven't seen the breakdown? Why has your guess not become reality?
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You may have been lucky so far. We'll see as it becomes more wide spread.

If if's and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry christmas. I'm not looking for your guess, I'm looking for you to use numbers to back your call for continued government force against the rights and liberties of the individual.
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I have, with what numbers we have. You have suggested we have other numbers, but have presented none that I'm aware of.


You're calling for government force to be used. There can be reasonable restrictions, but with reasonable comes proof. I would say that you calling for restrictions based only on your assumptions and guesses is not reasonable. But rather biased.
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Actually, I saying the school should decide. And government whould allow it. Schools appose it as much as anyone.

Biased as much as anyone holding a position I would say.



You may say that, but I'm going to try to make sure that people have the means to exert their force over the government should it ever need to be done.
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Good luck with that. I suspect you will need it should we ever get to that point.
 
Boo Radley said:
No need for a gun on campus, or in the classroom.
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I understand your concern...

Arming teachers/students is just putting a band-aid on all the moral failures of our country. Maybe we should concentrate on not needing the guns anymore. Do we really want to send the message to our kids that you have to have a gun to be safe, even at school?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this what you think?
 
ric27 said:
I understand your concern...

Arming teachers/students is just putting a band-aid on all the moral failures of our country. Maybe we should concentrate on not needing the guns anymore. Do we really want to send the message to our kids that you have to have a gun to be safe, even at school?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this what you think?
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I would agree with that.
 
College kids can barely handle a beer let alone a gun. College professors on the other hand, being so liberal probably won't put bullets in it.
 
coolwalker said:
College kids can barely handle a beer let alone a gun. College professors on the other hand, being so liberal probably won't put bullets in it.
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We took a vote here and all agreed we knew professors who shuld never touch a gun. And their politics wasn't even discussed. ;)
 
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