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Thread: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    the problem is that's not what I said. I said the training makes you better at making decisions and handling the chaos.
    The problem is, you no longer remember what you said. Several pages in, when examples of armed citizens stopping shooters were provided you made the assertion that Jeanne Assam was able to stop the shooter at New Life because she was:

    Let's not forget this either:

    The former security guard . . . ex-Minneapolis police officer.


    Now, as I talk to law enforement folks, it's risky for some trained well. Maddess for the novice shooter. More likely to miss and hit others.
    Right THERE you made the claim that people who werenít trained as law enforcement were more likely to miss and hit others. I asked you to prove it and youíve done nothing but danced around the topic and tried to deflect with talk about reaction speed. It was accuracy that stopped Matthew Murray.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'll have to find that quote as it makes no sense to me. I don't even see how you think it helps you.
    *sigh* Iíll try to spell this out carefully for you. I said that:

    It's beside the point that the whole premise of the study seemed to be the police saying, "Hey, yeah, we sometimes shoot innocent people, but our job is HARD, man! Look, you can't even do it right either, so cut us a break."
    To which you replied:

    no, the point was to show that training helps. No one sugests mistakes can be removed completely. But you improve the odds by having better training.
    Finally, I said:

    The goal of the study was to make Law Enforcement not look so bad for their accidental shootings.
    At this point, I provided the quote directly from your article to support my statement. Iím really not sure why youíre having trouble following this, but the point was that the flawed study had absolutely zero to do with arming citizens and everything to do with justifying already existing police procedure.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    Sick, sick, wide-spread paranoia... No, babee, they're not all out to get you.

    ricksfolly
    Of course they're not out to get me. I make a point of not looking like a victim. If you don't feel the obligation to protect yourself or your family, that's certainly your prerogative. By all means, don't let someone like me get between you and the baddies out there, kiddo.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    [QUOTE=theangryamerican;1059476157]
    The problem is, you no longer remember what you said. Several pages in, when examples of armed citizens stopping shooters were provided you made the assertion that Jeanne Assam was able to stop the shooter at New Life because she was:



    Right THERE you made the claim that people who weren’t trained as law enforcement were more likely to miss and hit others. I asked you to prove it and you’ve done nothing but danced around the topic and tried to deflect with talk about reaction speed. It was accuracy that stopped Matthew Murray.
    Yes, but not because of accuracy. We continued this for further clarification, remember. Many can shoot a target. It is the decision making and the ability to handle the chaos that is at question. I know many fine shots who I would not trust in a crisis.

    *sigh* I’ll try to spell this out carefully for you. I said that:



    To which you replied:



    Finally, I said:



    At this point, I provided the quote directly from your article to support my statement. I’m really not sure why you’re having trouble following this, but the point was that the flawed study had absolutely zero to do with arming citizens and everything to do with justifying already existing police procedure.
    I have found no such quote. (This quote: Nothing to do with gun safety, everything to do with justifying bad shoots.)

    I will say this, a study cna have more than one purpose. I don't doubt that showing this is difficult to civilians wouldn't hold some value. But, it shows that they do make poorer decisions than trained personal. I would expect this. I would think anyone would expect this.
    Last edited by Boo Radley; 05-10-11 at 06:07 PM.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, but not because of accuracy. We continued this for further clarification, remember. Many can shoot a target. It is the decision making and the ability to handle the chaos that is at question. I know many fine shots who I would not trust in a crisis.



    I have found no such quote. (This quote: Nothing to do with gun safety, everything to do with justifying bad shoots.)

    I will say this, a study cna have more than one purpose. I don't doubt that showing this is difficult to civilians wouldn't hold some value. But, it shows that they do make poorer decisions than trained personal. I would expect this. I would think anyone would expect this.
    Again, the study is so very flawed. They picked people that had apparently ZERO mentionable firearms experience and put them against police officers who had been trained to handle such situations. Of-flippin-course, people who have no experience with a gun make poor judgement calls about who to shoot. Now... what about those who have taken the steps to get carry permits, who have read their states laws, who understand the responsibility of carrying a gun every day AND who can put rounds on target when needed? You didn't clarify anything, you simply moved the goal posts when asked to prove that police are more accurate shooters than citizens.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Again, the study is so very flawed. They picked people that had apparently ZERO mentionable firearms experience and put them against police officers who had been trained to handle such situations. Of-flippin-course, people who have no experience with a gun make poor judgement calls about who to shoot. Now... what about those who have taken the steps to get carry permits, who have read their states laws, who understand the responsibility of carrying a gun every day AND who can put rounds on target when needed? You didn't clarify anything, you simply moved the goal posts when asked to prove that police are more accurate shooters than citizens.
    Don't you think in schools across the country we will have people with next to zero training? I grew up in the city and I have know a lot folks with guns with zero training.

    And this is the point. We are likley to have people in these situations armed but with no real training, making decisions, likely poor ones.

    And no, clarification is not equal to moving the goal posts. If you seek to understand, clarification is sometimes needed. I never meant to suggest they were poor shots. That was never my point.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Don't you think in schools across the country we will have people with next to zero training? I grew up in the city and I have know a lot folks with guns with zero training.

    And this is the point. We are likley to have people in these situations armed but with no real training, making decisions, likely poor ones.

    And no, clarification is not equal to moving the goal posts. If you seek to understand, clarification is sometimes needed. I never meant to suggest they were poor shots. That was never my point.

    We have both concealed AND open carry in my state. A permit is needed for concealed carry, but anyone can open carry, even on to some college campuses. Now, while it could be argued that at least some training is required to carry a concealed weapon, any old schmuck, trained or not can strap on a gun for the world to see. The people that are untrained with firearms hardly ever actually carry them, though they legally could, because they are uncomfortable with the workings of their gun. The vast majority of the untrained gun owners are the ones who bought a gun to protect their home and then stuck it in a closet. They don't carry, so the average non-gun owner probably won't even be impacted by those who are not comfortable enough to carry a firearm.

    This brings us to the other type of legal gun owner. It takes a conscious, responsible decision to legally carry a gun. The people who do carry usually do so because they are, to a certain extent, gun enthusiasts. Do you know what gun enthusiasts do? They train... and they shoot. I've never met a carrier who didn't like to discuss laws and practice tactics. We are largely some of the friendliest and most knowledgable people on the topic of guns, and honestly, we're not the ones that the rest of the populace should worry about.

    THAT was my point.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    We have both concealed AND open carry in my state. A permit is needed for concealed carry, but anyone can open carry, even on to some college campuses. Now, while it could be argued that at least some training is required to carry a concealed weapon, any old schmuck, trained or not can strap on a gun for the world to see. The people that are untrained with firearms hardly ever actually carry them, though they legally could, because they are uncomfortable with the workings of their gun. The vast majority of the untrained gun owners are the ones who bought a gun to protect their home and then stuck it in a closet. They don't carry, so the average non-gun owner probably won't even be impacted by those who are not comfortable enough to carry a firearm.

    This brings us to the other type of legal gun owner. It takes a conscious, responsible decision to legally carry a gun. The people who do carry usually do so because they are, to a certain extent, gun enthusiasts. Do you know what gun enthusiasts do? They train... and they shoot. I've never met a carrier who didn't like to discuss laws and practice tactics. We are largely some of the friendliest and most knowledgable people on the topic of guns, and honestly, we're not the ones that the rest of the populace should worry about.

    THAT was my point.
    I was talking to an open carry gun owner here last week. He spoke to the training which was minimal. He siad the instructor informed them that 99% would be repsonsible gun owners. 1% would be the problem, and they would be a real problem. He soon came to realize his friend was one of the 1% as he proceded to walk down mainstreet flipping his shot gun around.

    I would argue you're expience isn't enough. It only takes a small number to create enough problems for the law to become problematic. One idiot, one poor decision, in a school, and you will see the politics change, the laws change. I spent some years working on an ambulance, and I'm convinced that idiots and guns don't mix.

    But, that's a little different from my original point (though part of it). Few in law enforcement believe having guns on campus make us safer. Few believe having a large nuber of citizens with guns make us safer, legal or a right or not. ANd the younger and less experienced the carrier, the more likley (not absolute) there is to be problems.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    most of those who whine about this law use the same tired arguments that were advanced in opposition to allowing honest citizens from carrying licensed concealed weapons. All of those arguments are specious and have been proven contrary to empirical data.

    I will note (and anticipate the usual 3-4 to claim I am making stuff up) that I have been involved in a shooting where I was the victim of an attempted mugging that was stopped with a near fatal gunshot inflicted upon one of the two assailants. I have also taught CCW courses, and have over 35 years of competitive shooting experience in both handgun and shotgun tournaments and I have trained police officers, federal law enforcement officers and licensed civilians in both shooting and the use of force. I regularly attend advanced level training in these subjects at a facility that is recognized as a national leader in the field and is the paramount entity in the study of what is now called "active shooter" scenarios.

    That being said I note the following:

    1) most police officers are not all that proficient in firearms use. In Cincinnati, the average police officer shoots less than 200 shots a year. When I was actively competing in both USPSA and NRA action pistol competitions I was shooting over a thousand rounds a week. One of the top firearms trainers in the nation noted that if one were to randomly select 10 civilian shooters taking a CCW course and compare them to 10 randomly selected police officers in both shooting skills and knowledge of when to or not shoot, the civilians would almost always come out ahead

    2) some police officers believe that their badge is membership to a special club that civilians should not be allowed entry into That explains most of the "studies" that find that some police oppose laws such as the one in question. However, given that Justice department studies have established that armed civilians are a) less likely to wound an innocent party and b) more likely to hit the "bad guy" in a justifiable use of firearms scenario, police that pretend they are more skilled are simply lying

    3) in every state I am familiar with one cannot legally buy a handgun until age 21: and CCW licenses are restricted to those that age or older. Thus, those carrying pistols, even on a college campus are going to be at least a year or so older than many of our infantry dealing with urban combat in the Mid East in situations that involve opponents who are dressed no differently than innocent civilians. and those 18-20 year old soldiers and marines are carrying far more destructive weapons than a revolver or small auto

    4) every prediction of doom and gloom uttered by the Brady clowns and others during the pendency of carry legislation in the many states have come to be proven false. Yet the same nonsense continues to be trotted out by those who oppose people having the right and ability to defend themselves. At one time, speculation was all that was available-now the empirical evidence has conclusively destroyed the anti argument

    5) having studied the VA tech shooting, there is no doubt that if one or two of the students who were in a room that the active shooter tried to enter (I believe this is where a professor was killed trying to keep the murderer from entering the room) was armed the killer could have been quickly killed. Instead, he was able to methodically murder dozens because no one was armed



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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I was talking to an open carry gun owner here last week. He spoke to the training which was minimal. He siad the instructor informed them that 99% would be repsonsible gun owners. 1% would be the problem, and they would be a real problem. He soon came to realize his friend was one of the 1% as he proceded to walk down mainstreet flipping his shot gun around.

    I would argue you're expience isn't enough. It only takes a small number to create enough problems for the law to become problematic. One idiot, one poor decision, in a school, and you will see the politics change, the laws change. I spent some years working on an ambulance, and I'm convinced that idiots and guns don't mix.

    But, that's a little different from my original point (though part of it). Few in law enforcement believe having guns on campus make us safer. Few believe having a large nuber of citizens with guns make us safer, legal or a right or not. ANd the younger and less experienced the carrier, the more likley (not absolute) there is to be problems.

    I disagree with your conclusions. Large number of armed citizens makes us safer than in areas where the only people armed are criminals and cops.



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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Yeah, this with guns would be totally awesome...

    That with cars would be awesome as well...yet I don't see you saying we shouldn't have cars on campus.

    That with knives would be awesome as well...yet I don't see you saying we shouldn't have knives on campus. :

    That with equally partaking women would be awesome as well...yet I don't see you saying we shouldn't have coed campuses

    Hazlnuts post....

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